Does Any Perimeter Player in History Approach Peak MJ from 1988-1993?

[Stephonit]

As much as you hate it Kevin Durant was widely seen as the better player and closer when they played together and there is little to be done about that.

Haters might say Kyrie was better than Lebron or Parker better than Duncan but it was never a widely held belief by many people worth listening to. Kevin Durant as the best warrior was a perfectly normal opinion held by people who were in the game.

Just the way it is. It’s hard to get best peak talk as your teams number 2....or even a strong 1B like Kobe was in 01 and 02.

You’re the man or you aren’t and Steph wasn’t necessarily the man for 3 years of the 5 in question. It was his team in an abstract way but he wasn’t playing flat out better ball than his teammate especially considering defense. And in the finals it was clear a couple times who the team deferred to and that doesn’t help either.


This is like if Lebron and Wade played together from 08 on instead of 2010 or like peak Shaq getting 06-10 Kobe instead of 99-02. Two guys at the top of their game together instead of one at his peak and the other declining or being on the rise.

Hard to give either best run status on the same team at the same time. KD looms too large when the actual games get played.

KD needed the spotlight and Steph stepped back to let him shine. I'm utterly baffled though by the suggestion he was the man. KD misses 22 games in 2017 and the Warriors go 17-5 including a 13-0 stretch without him—a 65-win pace. Steph goes down, however, and the Warriors barely hover above 50%. The Warriors were something like 30 wins to 3 losses at one point without KD.

But that's only the regular season you say? Steph faced KD in 2016 in the playoffs. Did you guys forget how that turned out?

Cannot get best peak talk when there's a guy like KD around? Well we're talking about a team talked about as the best ever so no that limitation doesn't really apply. Curry led a historic team without KD and continued to do so with him. If being teamed up with another top 30 player is disqualifying there are a whole list of players that are disqualified—entire eras are disqualified.

[dankok8]

Oh definitely MJ was more dominant in his era.

I guess the counter argument would be that LeBron dealt with more talent, but that's not true either. 88 when he won MVP had crazy seasons from Bird, Magic, Barkley, Karl Malone, Clyde, Wilkins and Hakeem (tho not his best season, he was still a beast). Like the older I get, the more I think 88 season for MJ gets more impressive. And the whole 88-93 stretch. Like he was top 5 in DTRG there in 88. As a guard. I don't know how many times that happened, but it must be rare. And his motor was insane. The stamina was out of this world. Guarding the best player, great off the ball defense and helping, fighting through screens, and etc. The best blks for a guard. Lead the league in steals. All the while scoring 35 ppg on above 50%. While he gambled on the steals, he was probably the best I seen at it.

And yeah, it was me who made that thread about rim protection. I probably should've named it something else. I was trying to explain why I think it happened by each major event that cause the league to change it's play styles and rules. I mentioned earlier in the thread that nobody really touched MJ till the rules made it easier for perimeter players to score. The spacing really helps LeBron play style. Offense in general is at crazy high right now due to rules and more emphasis on efficient offense.

I feel like this simultaneously show greatness of both players tho. The reason why for LeBron, he stands out among his peers. Out played them in terms longevity (Wade, Carmelo, etc) even though they had the same advantages. And he regularly was able to stay consistent and hide his weakness with his insane athletic ability and IQ. It's like Kareem, but better. Because as good as Kareem was, he wasn't arguably the best player in the league. Him and Magic were like 1a or 1b, but it was Bird's league at that point. But with MJ, he played in league in league that was kind'a the opposite of LeBron. It went from high pace to slow pace while LeBron went from a somewhat slow pace to a high pace. In other words, LeBron played in league that was more defensive to offensive efficiency while MJ played from fastbreak efficient offensive league to a slow and grind out defensive league. The Bulls was ahead of the curve and played at a slow pace before it became popular in the 90s to do so. And he still played great in a stronger defensive league where big men ruled. But both showed they were the best. Although with LeBron less so cuz KD and Curry 16. LeBron coasted in the RS while MJ was always MJ and got better in the POs.

And even with the MJ like stars like Kobe, T-Mac, Wade, and AI, I feel like LeBron is the only one is the closest one to MJ when it comes to individual dominance. Wade was great tho. T-Mac was smooth. Kobe had the skills, probably equal to MJ, but lack the shot selection, athletic ability and the motor. Kobe was probably the closest before LeBron, but not in stats.

I did forget about James Harden tho. I have blind hatred towards his play style, but his RS stuff I feel like matches up MJ offensive. But the playoffs. Haha, naw. But I'm a bias hater till he retires or joins my team.

Anyway, I won't argue if you think MJ 88-93 was the best stretch. I think so too. We do just debate on semantics. And we might disagree on impact. Because I think LeBron had similar impact as MJ. I just think it's much more spread out than a yearly basis like MJ was.

There was always something missing from LeBron. Like one year, he was great offensively, but not defensively. Or coasted in the RS, but great PO. Or he was great in RS, but not as great in the PO. Except in 09.

What you said is bang on pretty much. During MJ's entire stretch from 1987-1993 the league was absolutely stacked with talent.

For instance in 1991, the other best players in the league were Magic, Bird, Hakeem, Barkley, Malone, Robinson, Ewing, Isiah, Dominique, Drexler, KJ, Stockton... I just listed off like 12 guys there and all of them absolute all-time greats. Bird was already on the decline and maybe Isiah. But Magic, Hakeem, Barkley, Malone and Robinson all in their primes plus other guys? That's ridiculous competition.

You said Lebron's impact is spread out. I don't want to discuss longevity because it kind of derails this thread but if Lebron needs more years to have similar impact then that proves that his peak/prime isn't as good.

[dankok8]

When I researched perimeter peaks for my article I was shocked at exactly how great Jerry West's numbers were. Always knew he had some huge playoff series but his consistency was pretty insane. Taking his 1965-1970 stretch...

Season: 29.4 ppg, 5.7 rpg, 6.4 apg, ? spg, ? bpg on 57.0 %TS (+7.7 rTS) with ? topg in 40.4 mpg

Playoffs: 32.5 ppg, 4.8 rpg, 6.6 apg, ? spg, ? bpg on 55.9 %TS (+6.6 rTS) with ? topg in 42.8 mpg

Finals: 33.7 ppg, 5.2 rpg, 6.0 apg, ? spg, ? bpg on 55.6 %TS (+6.3 rTS) with ? topg in 44.5 mpg

Considering he was also a really good defender, I would say he has a case that his peak is maybe the closest to Jordan ever. Unfortunately we don't have his steals, blocks and turnovers.

[HBK_Kliq_2]

When I researched perimeter peaks for my article I was shocked at exactly how great Jerry West's numbers were. Always knew he had some huge playoff series but his consistency was pretty insane. Taking his 1965-1970 stretch...

Season: 29.4 ppg, 5.7 rpg, 6.4 apg, ? spg, ? bpg on 57.0 %TS (+7.7 rTS) with ? topg in 40.4 mpg

Playoffs: 32.5 ppg, 4.8 rpg, 6.6 apg, ? spg, ? bpg on 55.9 %TS (+6.6 rTS) with ? topg in 42.8 mpg

Finals: 33.7 ppg, 5.2 rpg, 6.0 apg, ? spg, ? bpg on 55.6 %TS (+6.3 rTS) with ? topg in 44.5 mpg

Considering he was also a really good defender, I would say he has a case that his peak is maybe the closest to Jordan ever. Unfortunately we don't have his steals, blocks and turnovers.

How could he be closest to Jordan when he's the opposite of Jordan? He loses every finals. He's a huge loser who can't even win a ring when there's like 7 teams in the league. Even when he finally did win, his advanced stats were shit and Bill Russell was no longer in the league. Kawhi would kill Jerry West if he guarded him.

[8Ball]

Jerry West played against milk men.

Box score numbers vs 60s players are meaningless when trying to compare to players today.

Even JR Smith @ 40 years old can go to China and average 27/7/7.

[dankok8]

Jerry West played against milk men.

Box score numbers vs 60s players are meaningless when trying to compare to players today.

Even JR Smith @ 40 years old can go to China and average 27/7/7.

What if those milk men are allowed to handcheck and exert a lot of contact. And if they push you or even punch you or hit you in the head, no flagrants. And when you dribble your hand has to be above the ball at all times.

Do those things have any effect?

[Micku]

Jerry West is a good choice tho in terms of perimeter players stretches. Especially relative to the era. His finals numbers were crazy. He's another guy that step up his game in the playoffs from the RS. I would toss in Rick Barry there too for the first three years.

Elign Baylor for sure. Pre injury. So like....59-63 or 64? Probably one of most underrated or under appreciated players.

[HBK_Kliq_2]

What if those milk men are allowed to handcheck and exert a lot of contact. And if they push you or even punch you or hit you in the head, no flagrants. And when you dribble your hand has to be above the ball at all times.

Do those things have any effect?

What perimeter stars was Jerry West facing though? Mostly UPS drivers. Walt Frazier is the only one I can think of and he owned Jerry West in the 1970 finals. Name me some other perimeter stars that West was facing.

[dankok8]

Jerry West is a good choice tho in terms of perimeter players stretches. Especially relative to the era. His finals numbers were crazy. He's another guy that step up his game in the playoffs from the RS. I would toss in Rick Barry there too for the first three years.

Elign Baylor for sure. Pre injury. So like....59-63 or 64? Probably one of most underrated or under appreciated players.

I don't think Baylor belongs. He wasn't efficient and didn't pass and defend like Jerry would later.

[hateraid]

What you said is bang on pretty much. During MJ's entire stretch from 1987-1993 the league was absolutely stacked with talent.

For instance in 1991, the other best players in the league were Magic, Bird, Hakeem, Barkley, Malone, Robinson, Ewing, Isiah, Dominique, Drexler, KJ, Stockton... I just listed off like 12 guys there and all of them absolute all-time greats. Bird was already on the decline and maybe Isiah. But Magic, Hakeem, Barkley, Malone and Robinson all in their primes plus other guys? That's ridiculous competition.

You said Lebron's impact is spread out. I don't want to discuss longevity because it kind of derails this thread but if Lebron needs more years to have similar impact then that proves that his peak/prime isn't as good.

On an individual aspect sure. Teams weren't stacked. Most of those players didn't have a 1B or quality second Banana. The league got diluted as well.

[Hey Yo]

A tacked on popularity award that they give out every year. On the other hand how many have faced and defeated every other All-NBA First Team player in the same year in the playoffs? Or faced and defeated the two closest MVPs to him in time playing against him simultaneously in a series? Name the other players who have done either and when they did it. I cannot think of another case. Curry's accomplishments are singular and exceptional. So exceptional that even if an FMVP was all that it was made out to be (which it most certainly isn't) it would be a lesser achievement in comparison to what he has done.

So the FMVP is a popularity award and the regular season MVP isn't??

[HBK_Kliq_2]

Not 1 MVP. Sit you ass down. How dominant can Load Management be if he was at home nursing a thigh bruise

He was busy scoring 732 points on 62% TS, while Lebron was at home watching him.

[HBK_Kliq_2]

As much as you hate it Kevin Durant was widely seen as the better player and closer when they played together and there is little to be done about that.

Haters might say Kyrie was better than Lebron or Parker better than Duncan but it was never a widely held belief by many people worth listening to. Kevin Durant as the best warrior was a perfectly normal opinion held by people who were in the game.

Just the way it is. It’s hard to get best peak talk as your teams number 2....or even a strong 1B like Kobe was in 01 and 02.

You’re the man or you aren’t and Steph wasn’t necessarily the man for 3 years of the 5 in question. It was his team in an abstract way but he wasn’t playing flat out better ball than his teammate especially considering defense. And in the finals it was clear a couple times who the team deferred to and that doesn’t help either.


This is like if Lebron and Wade played together from 08 on instead of 2010 or like peak Shaq getting 06-10 Kobe instead of 99-02. Two guys at the top of their game together instead of one at his peak and the other declining or being on the rise.

Hard to give either best run status on the same team at the same time. KD looms too large when the actual games get played.

The Durant\Curry Warriors are an extremely overrated playoff team anyway. Everybody acts like they ran through every team they saw. You beat Spurs when Kawhi wasn't even playing and you were down 2-3 in the series until Chris Paul got injured. So basically beat the 1 man Lamarcus Aldridge Spurs and the 1 man Harden Rockets during five different west finals wins. No adversity, no nothing. Handed to them.

Raptors in 2019 were down 1-2 in the series vs 76ers and down 0-2 in the series vs Bucks. A team that can overcome adversity like that is more impressive then a team that looks great on paper.

[AirBonner]

Kawhi > MJ

[HBK_Kliq_2]

Kawhi > MJ

Agreed. Enough worship of Michael Baldan.

OP, you like defensive players anyway. You should appreciate Scottie Pippen then, who is the short version of Kevin Garnett.