Ronaldo or Messi??

[ArbitraryWater]

This notion that a poacher in the box is more valuable than an all-around talent in football has no historical precedent whatsoever. If what ArbitraryWater was saying is remotely true there would be at least someone saying Van Basten was better than Maradona or Gerd Muller was better than Cruyff.

Why?

Most of the lauded GOAT contenders, most of the BDOR winners, including last years one, are dominantly scorers...

Last year's award was the perfect example. Lewa, Bayern's clean-up man, who does nothing to build up play, won it over Müller, their main passer and assister.

There's probably a reason why 80% of all current and former players and managers say Messi is the better player. Including Ronaldo's Man U teammates like Rooney, Scholes, Giggs, Berbatov. You can google it or find on YT easily.

It's probably like 75%, but I don't really care. That 25% is reasonable doubt.

Most of the other players dont care or value big game performance enough.

These same analysts on TV make excuses for Messi when he has another head down strolling and pouting performance while he gets trashed 2-8 by Bayern.

Messi scores a bigger % of his scoring attempts. We have data from league games and CL since 2009-10:

Messi: 516 goals on 2602 shots (19.8 %)
Ronaldo: 505 goals on 3249 shots (15.5 %)

And mind you this edge in converting shots to goals is despite Messi attempting and scoring more goals outside of the box. Obviously the further you shoot from the harder it is to score so Messi's conversion rate looks even more impressive.

Therefore this notion that Ronaldo is more efficient is baloney...

You're confusing football with basketball again. Nobody measures efficiency with shot attempts. Football averages 2.5 goals a game, a shot attempt is typically a sign of pressure and very much welcomed.

You keep cherrypicking stats. Post the total complete stats for any competition and let's analyze.

I'm not cherrypicking anything.

I post QF-F goals and you've repeteadedly said you don't like that and tried to include R16 goals, at a far lesser stage, against worse opponents, during a time in which Real Madrid and Barcelona were never threatened at this stage and never lost at it,

Why?

Because Messi is the R16 scoring king.

Oh can he rack up those goals against Leverkusen...

but what happens when the defenses tighten up, the pressure increases?

Yeah, thats not cherrypicking.

The whole BS narrative that Ronaldo can score with any kind of service has been debunked in Juventus already. He scored 14 goals in 23 CL games with Juve. If you exclude penalties he scored 10 goals in 23 CL games. That's atrocious. Messi scored 15 non-penalty goals in 24 CL games in the same span. And outassisted Ronaldo 8 to 3. Ronaldo "led" his team to back to back to back losses against Ajax, Lyon and Porto. Juventus was heavily favored over all three of those teams.

Ronaldo is not just older than Messi, he also has no service at Juve, and his best teammate was injured in all 3 CL KO campaigns.

Nice try.

And just to give the good folks here an idea of exactly how much better Messi is outside of scoring goals... In the aforementioned CL in the last 3 seasons:

Key Passes: (a pass leading to a shot on goal)

Messi: 67
Ronaldo: 31

Big Chances Created: (set a teammate up at point blank range to score)

Messi: 20
Ronaldo: 6

Dribbles: (every dribble is successfully getting past a defender)

Messi: 121
Ronaldo: 42

Not valuing anything except end product (goals) shows a fundamental lack of knowledge of the game. Creating scoring chances and beating defenders by dribbling past them opens up space for others on the team to exploit which makes scoring goals far easier. There's a reason why teams make walls to stop Messi from getting inside. Those were your very words.

PSG gave Messi a few yards of space 30 meters from the goal and yea...

Haha, nice attempt and making this seem like a regular day in the office for Messi.

This was Messi's last great KO goal since the 2019 free kick, and before that? 2015.

And when did he do it? Down 4-1, with PSG not even giving a fck..

what happened when he had a penalty 15 minutes later that could have actually made it a ball game?

Ah, he missed it.

So once the pressure was there and it actually came to a meaningful situation, he missed a penalty.

Messi of course is a triple threat. He can score, he can make a ridiculous pass or he can just keep going and dribble a few more guys.

To summarize their CL records since Ronaldo went to Juventus:

Messi: 15 non-penalty goals, 5 penalty goals, 8 assists, 67 key passes, 20 big chances created, 121 dribbles in 24 matches
Ronaldo: 10 non-penalty goals, 4 penalty goals, 3 assists, 31 key passes, 6 big chances created, 42 dribbles in 23 matches

?

And why would we do that?

But carry on with the "Messi chokes" narrative...[/QUOTE]

[ArbitraryWater]

What you just saw linked was Messi's best long range effort in the CL...

He did this while down and out, 1-4 down...

Here is Ronaldo, scoring a screamer from 40 yards out, with his team live exiting the competition at the moment and in need of a goal:






Messi will never replicate a strike like that, never the less in such a dire moment, season on the line.

[Objectivity]

CR is the lebron equivalent of football, he does nothing better than messi and yet plebs consider them on the same lvl

[dankok8]

Lewa won BDO because he had a historic campaign. His 48 non-penalty goals in 19-20 ties the most Ronaldo ever scored in a club campaign and trails only Messi's top 3 seasons (59 in 2012, 55 in 2013, 52 in 2015). Lewa was scoring goals on a historic level last year and so far in the 20-21 season he's continued the pace. And of course Lewa won the treble with Bayern in 2020 as well. You hate to give Lewa credit because he makes poacher Ronaldo in Madrid look worse. A less physically talented and less skilled striker than Ronaldo with premier service can put up insane stats and win a treble at the same time!

That 20% that according to you creates reasonable doubt (legal term LOL) is a clear minority. As years go by and Ronaldo isn't winning trophies people will increasingly side with the guy who looks like the better player. Outside of Portuguese and die-hard Madridistas this debate is hardly a debate.

Why would you remove the CL R16? Ronaldo scored in the QF against the likes of Wolfsburg, Galatasaray, APOEL. Roma, Porto, Tottenham. None of these teams were CL contenders in those years. Even the group stage shouldn't be removed. But but "Barca always make it out of the group stage." Yea but if Messi didn't score goals, make assists and do other things maybe they wouldn't have. No cherrypicking. Post complete stats.

I'll help you out...

Messi has a higher frequency of end product (goals + assists) in every single notable competition: domestic league, domestic cup, CL, World Cup, Copa/Euro. And then he does a lot more outside of the end product. He totally dwarfs Ronaldo in playmaking whether you measure by key passes or big chances created or throughballs. His dribbling puts enormous pressure on defenses. It's not even close outside of scoring goals. Even in the years Messi played as a forward in the box his passing and dribbling numbers were gargantuan. But it shows the mastery of his game in the last few years that he can start plays 30 yards from goal and still score a comparable number of goals as the premier in-the-box finishers while doing all the other things.

[tpols]

CR is the lebron equivalent of football, he does nothing better than messi and yet plebs consider them on the same lvl

From the analysis given here it seems to be the opposite. Messi is the ball dominant, stat stuffing, not doing things when they matter most guy. Where as Ronaldo is the quick strike clutch superstar. Across basketball or soccer, the latter is much more conducive to winning.

[dankok8]

From the analysis given here it seems to be the opposite. Messi is the ball dominant, stat stuffing, not doing things when they matter most guy. Where as Ronaldo is the quick strike clutch superstar. Across basketball or soccer, the latter is much more conducive to winning.

Whose analysis?

And there is no such thing as ball dominant in soccer...

[Vorot]

Definitely Messi. He's more difficult than Ronaldo, and he's just as successful. I also think he is a nicer person.

[Manny98]

Messi disappears too much in the biggest games so Ronaldo

[ArbitraryWater]

The fact that dankok so clearly vehemently rejects the notion of preferencing QF-F stats where they face real competition over group stage stats against 2nd rate country teams and R16‘s playing 2nd seeds as heavy favorite is hilarious and tells you everything you need to know about his bias and Messi‘s mental midgetry.


Yes, lets not count the biggest matches more!

Its the February regular season games that should be equally looked at ;-)

[dankok8]

The fact that dankok so clearly vehemently rejects the notion of preferencing QF-F stats where they face real competition over group stage stats against 2nd rate country teams and R16‘s playing 2nd seeds as heavy favorite is hilarious and tells you everything you need to know about his bias and Messi‘s mental midgetry.


Yes, lets not count the biggest matches more!

Its the February regular season games that should be equally looked at ;-)

Ignoring the group stage and Round of 16 is like ignoring the early rounds of the NBA playoffs. Who posts playoff numbers without the 1st and 2nd rounds? A later round doesn't always mean tougher competition. Look at Ronaldo's goals against Roma, APOEL, Galatasaray and Tottenham in the QF of the CL... In 2018 when Real ended up winning the CL they finished second in their group. If Ronaldo decided to take the group stage off and not score against Dortmund, Real would be out in the group stage. To call those games meaningless is quite wrong. Atleti that same year didn't even make the knockout rounds.

Maybe a reason Messi's Barca made the QF in 13 consecutive years from 2008-2020 has something to do with Messi's dominance in the Round of 16? Messi has scored or assisted in the last 14 seasons (and scored in 13 out of 14 BTW) in the Round of 16. Maybe that's why you're avoiding to post those stats...

You can post complete stats and then decide to highlight certain aspects but if you cherrypick you're excluding pieces of information. Let everyone see all the stats and make their own conclusions. Here is a link with very complete Messi vs. Ronaldo numbers for everyone to see:

https://www.messivsronaldo.app/

And there is no such thing as a regular season game in football. League games still have a trophy at the end of it. In fact in big leagues like EPL and La Liga, the domestic league title is arguably as valuable as the CL. The likes of Jurgen Klopp and Zidane have said it's harder to win the league. Saying "February games" would be fair if I was bringing up Supercups and little titles like that but I didn't and wouldn't because those really don't matter. But domestic league titles matter a lot and domestic cups matter a little bit too.

Besides this myth of Messi choking in the CL has to die. There is lots of clueless people repeating this as fact when it's debunked very easily.

Since 2008-2009 when Messi entered his prime, he had end product (goal or assist) in 27 out of 35 CL ties he played in (77% of the time). In the same time span Ronaldo had end product in 31 out of 37 CL ties he played in (84% of the time). Ronaldo has a marginally higher rate of giving end product in the Knockout Stages of the CL. This "more clutch" narrative just doesn't pass the test when, once again, we consider just how much better Messi is in building up play and how much more he does with his playmaking and dribbling abilities. You can find a long list of downright dominant games from Messi in which he neither scored nor assisted. Games in which he set up 5+ scoring chances for his teammates.

Besides as far as big games go why not also mention the knockout stages of the World Cup and Euro/Copa?

World Cup KO Rounds
Messi: 0 goals, 4 assists in 8 matches (1x Man of the Match)
Ronaldo: 0 goals, 0 assists in 6 matches (0x Man of the Match)

Euro Cup/Copa America KO Rounds:
Messi: 4 goals, 13 assists in 21 matches (5x Man of the Match)
Ronaldo: 3 goals, 2 assists in 16 matches (2x Man of the Match)

[Nike D'Antoni]

Pele, Brazilian Ronaldo, Maradona, Zidane are my top four of all time. They all won the world cup. Messi has 0 goals in the knockout stages of the world cup and constant choke jobs with his Argentinian team.

C.Ronaldo or Messi on CL level, I take Ronaldo. 5 CL titles with 2 different teams beats 4 CL titles with one team ( and one of Messi 4 CL he never played - 2005)


I don't think Messi can ever win something of note without Xavi - Iniesta

[ArbitraryWater]

Ignoring the group stage and Round of 16 is like ignoring the early rounds of the NBA playoffs. Who posts playoff numbers without the 1st and 2nd rounds? A later round doesn't always mean tougher competition. Look at Ronaldo's goals against Roma, APOEL, Galatasaray and Tottenham in the QF of the CL...

yeah, its like ignoring the 1st round.

Those are nice goals but in the end they would have won those ties one way or another. a close r16 for a #1 real/barca squad happens once every 5-6 years.

the fact you try to equal those goals where they ran over bum teams like arsenal or bayer leverkusen to the real heavyweight bouts where they play typically other group winners in qf is absurdly laughable.

youre a disgrace, basically.

ronaldo owns messi when it matters. cl qf-f.

you can yack about your group stage and r16 as mch as you want, but that will never cut it.

wasnt round 1's when jordan made his legacy.

and fck are you talking about round 2's.

round 2 is the qf. no one is discrediting that.

[dankok8]

yeah, its like ignoring the 1st round.

Those are nice goals but in the end they would have won those ties one way or another. a close r16 for a #1 real/barca squad happens once every 5-6 years.

the fact you try to equal those goals where they ran over bum teams like arsenal or bayer leverkusen to the real heavyweight bouts where they play typically other group winners in qf is absurdly laughable.

youre a disgrace, basically.

ronaldo owns messi when it matters. cl qf-f.

you can yack about your group stage and r16 as mch as you want, but that will never cut it.

wasnt round 1's when jordan made his legacy.

and fck are you talking about round 2's.

round 2 is the qf. no one is discrediting that.

If you start cherrypicking and removing R16 matches I'll cherrypick and remove the likes of Wolfsburg, Ajax, Roma, APOEL, Porto, Galatasaray, Tottenham, injured Juve that Ronaldo scored on in the QF because those teams aren't very good. Maybe I'll also mention the two offside goals (Bayern QF 2017) or garbage time goals (Arsenal SF 2009, Bayern SF 2014, Atleti F 2014). If you want to compare samples sizes of 10-20 games over 15 years be my guest. I prefer to look at the big picture. Their 150-180 CL games against variable European competition is a better indicator of their abilities IMO. Their 900-1000+ career games are also a better indicator. With large sample sizes there is less noise.

Anyways regarding the "clutch" argument...

FACTS
- Messi scored or assisted in 77% of KO stage ties and Ronaldo in 84% of KO stage ties since 2008-2009; this is a very small difference
- Messi scored or assisted a lot more in the knockout stages of the World Cup and Copa/Euro
- Messi is a much better player outside of scoring goals; he dwarfs Ronaldo in passing, dribbling and creates way more scoring chances for his team

The third point along with all their stats makes it extremely unlikely that Ronaldo is better than Messi.

[ArbitraryWater]

If you start cherrypicking and removing R16 matches I'll cherrypick and remove the likes of Wolfsburg, Ajax, Roma, APOEL, Porto, Galatasaray, Tottenham, injured Juve that Ronaldo scored on in the QF because those teams aren't very good. Maybe I'll also mention the two offside goals (Bayern QF 2017) or garbage time goals (Arsenal SF 2009, Bayern SF 2014, Atleti F 2014). If you want to compare samples sizes of 10-20 games over 15 years be my guest. I prefer to look at the big picture. Their 150-180 CL games against variable European competition is a better indicator of their abilities IMO. Their 900-1000+ career games are also a better indicator. With large sample sizes there is less noise.

Anyways regarding the "clutch" argument...

FACTS
- Messi scored or assisted in 77% of KO stage ties and Ronaldo in 84% of KO stage ties since 2008-2009; this is a very small difference
- Messi scored or assisted a lot more in the knockout stages of the World Cup and Copa/Euro
- Messi is a much better player outside of scoring goals; he dwarfs Ronaldo in passing, dribbling and creates way more scoring chances for his team

The third point along with all their stats makes it extremely unlikely that Ronaldo is better than Messi.

second bold: pretty random starting point haha. And also, goals > assists, and QF's > anything before. Try doing QF's on, and you will be bamboozled and back to:

first bold.

You're literally cherrypicking.

I'm counting QF-F which isnt a cherrypicking practice.

Who says we have to count R16-F?

We can, but no one (except maybe you) will make the argument that the R16 achievements are as valuable as QF-F ones.


Are you actually saying that?

Nobody gives a **** about what MJ did in the 1st round of the playoffs.

The occasion and opposition was heightened each and every round.

Sorry bub, this one stays.


Btw, Messi has actually not scored a lot more in the KO stages of the WC at all, and neither Copa to Euro (a worse continent, which he has played more often and was once played B2B years, and has enjoyed longer runs in at the hands of his superior cast).

You're literally lying at this point.

[dankok8]

second bold: pretty random starting point haha. And also, goals > assists, and QF's > anything before. Try doing QF's on, and you will be bamboozled and back to:

first bold.

You're literally cherrypicking.

I'm counting QF-F which isnt a cherrypicking practice.

Who says we have to count R16-F?

We can, but no one (except maybe you) will make the argument that the R16 achievements are as valuable as QF-F ones.


Are you actually saying that?

Nobody gives a **** about what MJ did in the 1st round of the playoffs.

The occasion and opposition was heightened each and every round.

Sorry bub, this one stays.


Btw, Messi has actually not scored a lot more in the KO stages of the WC at all, and neither Copa to Euro (a worse continent, which he has played more often and was once played B2B years, and has enjoyed longer runs in at the hands of his superior cast).

You're literally lying at this point.

Ok but if we are choosing QF to Final and that's ok then why not just Finals? Messi has 2 goals in 3 matches. Ronaldo has 4 goals in 6 matches but one of them (2014) was meaningless penalty in the 120th minute with his team already up 3-1. Messi is the better performer in the CL Finals which is the biggest stage.

Sorry bub, this one stays.

Here are the World Cup and Euro/Copa knockout stages stats again.

World Cup KO Rounds
Messi: 0 goals, 4 assists in 8 matches (1x Man of the Match)
Ronaldo: 0 goals, 0 assists in 6 matches (0x Man of the Match)

Euro Cup/Copa America KO Rounds:
Messi: 4 goals, 13 assists in 21 matches (5x Man of the Match)
Ronaldo: 3 goals, 2 assists in 16 matches (2x Man of the Match)

No... 4 goals and 17 assists isn't better than 3 goals and 2 assists. Not at all!