Payton had more All-NBA than Pippen and was better scorer/passer/defender/producer

[bizil]

GP was a more DOMINANT two way player than Pippen. Defensively, it doesn't get better at their respective positions. Passing wise, I would go with GP. Even though Pip is among the best passing SF's ever of course. Rebounding of course goes to Pip. And defensive versatility goes to Pip too. EVEN THOUGH GP could check the PG, SG, and many SF's.

At the time Pip was at his peak, he was a SF NEVER seen before in the league. At 6'8, he combined the freak athletic ability of Doc with the floor game of Hondo! G Hill upped the ante with the blueprint. While Bron took it too the ultimate level. When it comes to GP, we had seen similar PG's before him at that 6'4 size. Like a Walt Frazier or Dennis Johnson. So while I would take GP over Pip peak-prime wise, Pip was SUCH A UNIQUE PLAYER that he could ACTUALLY cover more holes. And GP's scoring edge wasn't a HUGE GAP. But I just think a PG would FEAR guarding GP more than an SF WOULD FEAR guarding Scottie. And when u factor scoring, defense, and passing as a package, GP is ARGUABLY the best PG of all time.

[Axe]

GP was a more DOMINANT two way player than Pippen. Defensively, it doesn't get better at their respective positions. Passing wise, I would go with GP. Even though Pip is among the best passing SF's ever of course. Rebounding of course goes to Pip. And defensive versatility goes to Pip too. EVEN THOUGH GP could check the PG, SG, and many SF's.

At the time Pip was at his peak, he was a SF NEVER seen before in the league. At 6'8, he combined the freak athletic ability of Doc with the floor game of Hondo! When it comes to GP, we had seen similar PG's before him at that 6'4 size. Like a Walt Frazier or Dennis Johnson. So while I would take GP over Pip peak-prime wise, Pip was SUCH A UNIQUE PLAYER that he could ACTUALLY cover more holes. And GP's scoring edge wasn't a HUGE GAP. But I just think a PG would FEAR guarding GP more than an SF WOULD FEAR guarding Scottie. And when u factor scoring, defense, and passing as a package, GP is ARGUABLY the best PG of all time.

3ball is never going to comprehend any of this.

[Ainosterhaspie]

Are you blind lol. Basically explained it on the post you replied to.

Nah, that's empty pablum. There's more to making others better than not having the ball and letting them play. Maybe your definition of making others better is not being good enough to make things easier for your teammates, but that's not something anyone looking to build a team wants in a player. By that standard, the worse you are as a player, the better you are at making others better, because you make their job harder by being awful thereby helping them become better players because they have to refine their skills to cover for the holes in the crappy player's game. Joel Anthony was the GOAT makes others better guy because he never wanted the ball and suclwd when he had it so it was always 4 on 5 offense for his team when he was out there.

[Reggie43]

Such bad logic compounded by made up assumptions. Just watch Kemp play so you would see for yourself what Im talking about.

[Ainosterhaspie]

Freak athlete, impressive dunker and finisher. Not much of a shooter or passer. None of that equates to making others better.
What did I forget? You're making the case he makes others better, so how about explaining that in some way instead of just saying he did.

[97 bulls]

You don't know enough about the players you're trying to compare. You are clearly ignorant of the issues with Gary Payton that have prevented him from being ranked as highly as Scottie Pippen.

George Karl on Gary Payton’s weaknesses from his book “Furious George”:

-Gets agitated too easily
-Too predictable
-Thinks he’s a three point shooter when he’s not
-Poor practice habits
-Poor off court habits
-Poor body language
-Poor attitude

Glove’s defense was always there but his attitude, his leadership and his decision making wasn’t.

Gary Payton was always late for practice. That's the kind of guy he was.

Pippen was a much better leader - by an enormous degree! - and a better decision maker and obviously more versatile.

Pippen also had more 1st team All-NBA selections, for what that's worth.

George Karl on his desire to trade for Scottie Pippen in 1994 (Kemp, Pierce & Seattle’s #1 pick for Pippen):

“Pippen was the best small forward, or 3, in the league. Nothing he wasn’t good at. During one of Michael’s retirements, Scottie led his team in all five of the main categories - rebounds, scoring, blocks, steals and assists - so rare that it had only happened once before in NBA history.

When I tried to imagine the Sonics without Shawn I knew I’d miss him, but I got pretty excited picturing Gary and Scottie teaming up on a trap; they’d smother opposing guards. But every trade prompts a debate. I was in favor of this one but I wasn’t sure.

So I called Michael. We talked about minor-league baseball, North Caroline basketball, and golf. Then we talked about the big deal on the table. Should we do this?

“Do it,” he said. “Scottie can make your other players better. Kemp can’t.”

Great post. Reading these posts shows that most of these guys dont know about basketball. They know about stats and agenda. What good are gaudy stats if you cant win? I'll never understand this logic. Which guy was gonna give you the best chance to win? I'd go with Pip. Even though Payton is close.

As far as stats go, let's understand this. PIPPEN PLAYED HURT!!!! That effects his overall statistics. He never had a legit break from 91 to 98. I think his stats wouldve been alot better if he had a few seasons where the Bulls didnt have so many deep championships and playoff runs as well as two Olympic runs

I think he just was trying to survive and get through the season with a Championship.

[mehyaM24]

Great post. Reading these posts shows that most of these guys dont know about basketball. They know about stats and agenda. What good are gaudy stats if you cant win? I'll never understand this logic. Which guy was gonna give you the best chance to win? I'd go with Pip. Even though Payton is close.

As far as stats go, let's understand this. PIPPEN PLAYED HURT!!!! That effects his overall statistics. He never had a legit break from 91 to 98. I think his stats wouldve been alot better if he had a few seasons where the Bulls didnt have so many deep championships and playoff runs as well as two Olympic runs

I think he just was trying to survive and get through the season with a Championship.

ya true. pippen's postseason numbers nosideived because of his knees/back. injuries are part of the game, sure, but if they had no consequence, he would have seen playoff runs similar to the regular-season. pippen was actually in great position to win FMVP in 98. malone, sloan and hornacek all spoke about pippen's help defense, and it being the biggest detriment to their play - then his bad back got in the way.

no tears here, but pippen deserves credit for playing hurt.

[mehyaM24]

Freak athlete, impressive dunker and finisher. Not much of a shooter or passer. None of that equates to making others better.
What did I forget? You're making the case he makes others better, so how about explaining that in some way instead of just saying he did.

don't remember kemp making anyone better, either. great individual talent although not exactly known for his playmaking. jordan didn't sugarcoat it.

[Reggie43]

Freak athlete, impressive dunker and finisher. Not much of a shooter or passer. None of that equates to making others better.
What did I forget? You're making the case he makes others better, so how about explaining that in some way instead of just saying he did.

He might as well have been DeAndre Jordan by your description lol. Just like I said just watch him play. Not every kid that asks for it deserves a thorough explanation.

[Ainosterhaspie]

He might as well have been DeAndre Jordan by your description lol. Just like I said just watch him play. Not every kid that asks for it deserves a thorough explanation.

Ok. I'm wrong. MJ is wrong. Karl is wrong. Why? Because Reggie says so. Well then, I'm convinced. My bad.

[Reggie43]

Kids looking up quotes without context and treating it as gospel is the most priceless thing ever.

[Reggie43]

I love how Jordan would be called the worst talent evaluator ever in these parts yet when Jordan says Kemp does not make his teammates better we are supposed to believe him, no ifs and buts because Jordan said so

[3ball]

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Thread Cliffs


Payton was a better scorer/passer/defender with more all-nba, but he's ranked below Pippen because of rings, which fueled a comparable all-nba tally for Pippen (media awards)..

Ultimately, no one ever said a 2nd option like McHale was better than Ewing because of rings, or Klay > Beal because of rings - only Pippen gets that treatment, which shows that he's rated incorrectly..

Pippen's accolades were simply inflated by the winning spotlight, while his actual performance doesn't warrant top 30... 22/8/5 and 2nd Round loss is a top 300 peak, while his career production rate (PER, etc) puts him at about 150..

In the history of 3-pointer basketball, Pippen is one of the rare 2nd options on champions that never achieved elite 1st option stats or FMVP (true 2nd options), aka Rip Hamilton, Pippen, Klay, Jason Terry, Gasol, Horry... So only Jordan won a bunch of rings with true 2nd options and without super-teams

[dankok8]

GP was a more DOMINANT two way player than Pippen. Defensively, it doesn't get better at their respective positions. Passing wise, I would go with GP. Even though Pip is among the best passing SF's ever of course. Rebounding of course goes to Pip. And defensive versatility goes to Pip too. EVEN THOUGH GP could check the PG, SG, and many SF's.

At the time Pip was at his peak, he was a SF NEVER seen before in the league. At 6'8, he combined the freak athletic ability of Doc with the floor game of Hondo! G Hill upped the ante with the blueprint. While Bron took it too the ultimate level. When it comes to GP, we had seen similar PG's before him at that 6'4 size. Like a Walt Frazier or Dennis Johnson. So while I would take GP over Pip peak-prime wise, Pip was SUCH A UNIQUE PLAYER that he could ACTUALLY cover more holes. And GP's scoring edge wasn't a HUGE GAP. But I just think a PG would FEAR guarding GP more than an SF WOULD FEAR guarding Scottie. And when u factor scoring, defense, and passing as a package, GP is ARGUABLY the best PG of all time.

Good post.

GP gets super underrated these days. And like you said he vs. Pippen feels like kind of a wash. Depends on what your team needs.

For the record I think MJ wouldn't win as much with GP in place of Pippen. But the Sonics could get worse too with Pippen in place of GP as well. Payton fit that team like a glove that he is... lol

[ELITEpower23]

You made a thread last week about how Detlef Shrempf was better than Pippen.

Isn't it a little counter-intuitive to then make a Payton > Pippen one?

OP sure is delusional or so it seems