The difference between Kobe, Vince, and McGrady

[Im Still Ballin]

There's this notion that Vince and McGrady were both more naturally talented than Kobe. They were both taller, longer-armed, and weighed more. Some say more athletic, too; I'm not sure if I agree -- athleticism is more than dunking.

The narrative is that Kobe made up for those comparative shortcomings by working harder. I'm not quite sure if that's true.

Kobe was undoubtedly in a better situation than the other two. Playing in LA, alongside Shaq put him front-and-center; all the eyes were on him. Playing with the big man also made things easier on the court; I'm sure Vince and Tracy would've done well in his place.

But to suggest that circumstance was the only difference between them? I don't agree. Kobe proved himself post-Shaq; he took his game to new heights.

I think people underrate Kobe's talent. There's more to natural talent than anthropomorphic measurements and vertical jumps.

Kobe probably worked harder, but I think he was simply a greater talent, to begin with.

What do you think?

1999-2000 to 2006-2007 season

Kobe:

STATS
- 39.9 minutes per game
- 28.3 points // 5.9 rebounds // 5.3 assists // 1.7 steals // 0.6 blocks // 3.2 turnovers
- 45.5 FG% // 33.8 3PT% // 84.3 FT%
- 24.7 PER // 55.6 TS% // .199 WS48 // +5.8 BPM
- +6.3 on/off

SHOOTING BY DISTANCE
48.1 2PT%
0-3ft = 63.4%
3-10ft = 42.3%
10-16ft = 42.4%
16-3pt = 41.2%

ACCOLADES
3 Championships
8x All-Star
2x All-Star MVP
18x Player of the Week
8x Player of the Month
5x All-NBA 1st Team
2x All-NBA 2nd Team
1x All-NBA 3rd Team
5x All-Defensive 1st Team
2x All-Defensive 2nd Team

MVP SHARES
1999-00 NBA 0.002 (12)
2000-01 NBA 0.009 (9)
2001-02 NBA 0.078 (5)
2002-03 NBA 0.417 (3)
2003-04 NBA 0.172 (5)
2005-06 NBA 0.386 (4)
2006-07 NBA 0.404 (3)

Vince:

STATS
- 37.8 minutes per game
- 24.6 points // 5.4 rebounds // 4.2 assists // 1.3 steals // 0.8 blocks // 2.4 turnovers
- 44.6 FG% // 37.9 3PT% // 79.4 FT%
- 22.2 PER // 53.6 TS% // .158 WS48 // +5.1 BPM
- +10.7 on/off

SHOOTING BY DISTANCE
46.4 2PT%
0-3ft = 59.8%
3-10ft = 40.4%
10-16ft = 38.6%
16-3pt = 41.0%

ACCOLADES
8x All-Star
10x Player of the Week
3x Player of the Month
1x All-NBA 2nd Team
1x All-NBA 3rd Team

MVP SHARES
1999-00 NBA 0.042 (10)
2000-01 NBA 0.006 (11)
2004-05 NBA 0.002 (13)

McGrady:

STATS
- 37.8 minutes per game
- 25.3 points // 6.6 rebounds // 5.1 assists // 1.5 steals // 1.0 blocks // 2.6 turnovers
- 43.9 FG% // 34.4 3PT% // 75.4 FT%
- 24.4 PER // 52.7 TS% // .177 WS48 // +6.7 BPM
- +7.2 on/off

SHOOTING BY DISTANCE
46.5 2PT%
0-3ft = 58.9%
3-10ft = 38.4%
10-16ft = 38.9%
16-3pt = 42.1%

ACCOLADES
7x All-Star
10x Player of the Week
4x Player of the Month
2x All-NBA 1st Team
3x All-NBA 2nd Team
1x All-NBA 3rd Team

MVP SHARES
2000-01 NBA 0.052 (6)
2001-02 NBA 0.310 (4)
2002-03 NBA 0.359 (4)
2004-05 NBA 0.035 (7)
2006-07 NBA 0.085 (6)

[Elosha]

Yes, Kobe was more naturally talented then both, although McGrady in his prime could definitely challenge him. Vince was a superb player, but way too inconsistent to be matched up with someone of Kobe's greatness.

One thing people don't realize is that Kobe was overall quicker than both of those player and had a more explosive first step. That is so important in basketball for athletic two guards. Kobe obviously had a great vertical leap, but it was not quite as good as either Carter or McGrady. But he could get past either of them whenever he wanted based on his extremely good ball-handling and incredible first step. He was also likely quicker than both of them laterally both on offense and defense. MJ, Kobe, and Dwyane Wade are the quickest elite shooting guards I have ever seen, and they could routinely blow past point guards, shooting guards and small forwards. It didn't matter who you put in front of them, they would almost always have a quickness advantage, and if they didn't, they would still have the strength to overwhelm their opponent.

Again, McGrady and Carter were not slouches when it came to quickness ( McGrady was quicker than Vince Carter) but they could not compare with someone like Kobe. And this is an area of athleticism that is so extremely important but often overlooked.

[Phoenix]

Talent is a hard thing to quantify. That said, I've been watching alot of early 2000s Tmac highlights and he made scoring look easier than what Kobe was doing. Kobe had some advantages, quicker first step and better laterally, but Tmac was a legit 6'8-6'9 with a better vert and wingspan. I kind of see 03 Tmac stylistically as a slighter shorter Durant but with better handle, better athleticism, better slasher and worse shooting( though shooting for peak Tmac was no weakness by any stretch, dude would straight up let it fly right in your face with zero fukks given). It's pretty easy to see why Tmac and Kobe was a conversation at one point. I notice by 05 his shot got a lot flatter, more of a line drive, and with it his efficiency( I imagine adjustments made due to his chronic back). But dude when healthy was crazy gifted, when Kobe was scoring 35ppg in 2006.... if you take 2003 Tmac and put him in that year on a shit team? He's probably dropping 35 too.



Remember that Kobe the very next year, with Shaq on-board to take some of the pressure, struggled against this team. People give this guy shit for not getting out of the first round, but his career had he managed to stay healthy would have been special( or moreso than it was). I firmly believe that.

[pandiani17]

I would say two big things separated Kobe from other great SG's of that era:

1-He played with prime Shaq. Quite probably T-Mac, AI or Vince would have also threepeated with him as teammate.
2-He had a much stronger WILL than them. Although they were extremely talented, remember that Vince only advanced to the second round of the post-season in 2001 as the man, only once. T-Mac never won a playoff series. And they were playing in a very weak conference. These facts should be enough to see that the comparison between Kobe and the cousins is absurd, they can only be compared talent-wise, once you go beyond that it is quite clear Kobe is head and shoulders above them.

[Phoenix]

I would say two big things separated Kobe from other great SG's of that era:

1-He played with prime Shaq. Quite probably T-Mac, AI or Vince would have also threepeated with him as teammate.
2-He had a much stronger WILL than them. Although they were extremely talented, remember that Vince only advanced to the second round of the post-season in 2001 as the man, only once. T-Mac never won a playoff series. And they were playing in a very weak conference. These facts should be enough to see that the comparison between Kobe and the cousins is absurd, they can only be compared talent-wise, once you go beyond that it is quite clear Kobe is head and shoulders above them.

Yeah but you take 2003 Kobe and put him on the 03 Magic, you think he's doing anything with that team that Tmac didn't?

That said, Kobe mentally was tougher than both (will as you call it) and was just a more fierce and tenacious competitor. I don't buy into the argument that Tmac or Vince with Shaq 3peats in that 2000-2002 space, though I do believe Tmac could have gotten at least one in that situation, probably 2002. Also I think Tmac and Shaq possibly mesh a bit better chemistry-wise, by 2001 Kobe was battling Shaq for the alpha role.

[FultzNationRISE]

I think people underrate Kobe's talent. There's more to natural talent than anthropomorphic measurements and vertical jumps.

Kobe probably worked harder, but I think he was simply a greater talent, to begin with.

What do you think?

1999-2000 to 2006-2007 season

Anthropomorphic measurements?




I know you got some impressive anthropomorphic measurements yourself, but... that doesnt make any sense bro

[j3lademaster]

Yeah but you take 2003 Kobe and put him on the 03 Magic, you think he's doing anything with that team that Tmac didn't?

That said, Kobe mentally was tougher than both (will as you call it) and was just a more fierce and tenacious competitor. I don't buy into the argument that Tmac or Vince with Shaq 3peats in that 2000-2002 space, though I do believe Tmac could have gotten at least one in that situation, probably 2002. Also I think Tmac and Shaq possibly mesh a bit better chemistry-wise, by 2001 Kobe was battling Shaq for the alpha role.

Tmac's 03 squad is as bad if not worse than Kobe's 06 squad, so yeah to your point it'll be tough for Kobe to win a playoff series with that.

The narrative is that Kobe made up for those comparative shortcomings by working harder. I'm not quite sure if that's true.

Kobe definitely worked harder than just about anyone. Listen to Bosh's hof speech about playing with Kobe in 08. He set his clock super early so he can be the first one at breakfast to set an example and Kobe's already down there eating after a full workout. Kobe slept like 4 hours a night and was a complete maniac. And it showed in how his skills advanced from the early 2k's to 10 years later. He eventually became arguably the most skilled player ever. No one has a left hand like him and no one had footwork in the paint like him. If you want to argue Curry's a bit more skilled with his handles and shooting? fine. As long as you acknowledge Kobe's up there I won't have a problem.

But to suggest that circumstance was the only difference between them? I don't agree. Kobe proved himself post-Shaq; he took his game to new heights.

Do you consider injury circumstance? If Tmac played right now when load management is prevalent he may have a better career. He played through back spasms in 04 and injuries happen mostly when athletes are either fatigued or hurt somewhere and using other muscles to try to compensate for movement. Who knows how good a healthy 27 year old Tmac would have gotten?

I think people underrate Kobe's talent. There's more to natural talent than anthropomorphic measurements and vertical jumps.

I think plenty acknowledge Kobe's athleticism. He only falls short when we compare him to the likes of Lebron and MJ. I think it's easy to see from the vid Phoenix posted on how insane Tmac was. Look at where he takes off from for an up and under layup. How smooth and effortless it looked. Circa 03 was when Tmac and Kobe were close skill-wise and Tmac had a 6'9-6'10" frame. Kobe became better through hard work and possessing better mental toughness.

[Phoenix]

Tmac's 03 squad is as bad if not worse than Kobe's 06 squad, so yeah to your point it'll be tough for Kobe to win a playoff series with that.


Kobe definitely worked harder than just about anyone. Listen to Bosh's hof speech about playing with Kobe in 08. He set his clock super early so he can be the first one at breakfast to set an example and Kobe's already down there eating after a full workout. Kobe slept like 4 hours a night and was a complete maniac. And it showed in how his skills advanced from the early 2k's to 10 years later. He eventually became arguably the most skilled player ever. No one has a left hand like him and no one had footwork in the paint like him. If you want to argue Curry's a bit more skilled with his handles and shooting? fine. As long as you acknowledge Kobe's up there I won't have a problem.


Do you consider injury circumstance? If Tmac played right now when load management is prevalent he may have a better career. He played through back spasms in 04 and injuries happen mostly when athletes are either fatigued or hurt somewhere and using other muscles to try to compensate for movement. Who knows how good a healthy 27 year old Tmac would have gotten?


I think plenty acknowledge Kobe's athleticism. He only falls short when we compare him to the likes of Lebron and MJ. I think it's easy to see from the vid Phoenix posted on how insane Tmac was. Look at where he takes off from for an up and under layup. How smooth and effortless it looked. Circa 03 was when Tmac and Kobe were close skill-wise and Tmac had a 6'9-6'10" frame. Kobe became better through hard work and possessing better mental toughness.

Tmac would have been 26-27 in the 06 season when everyone exploded. If healthy, suffice to say he would have received the same 'boost' everyone else did after the rule changes allowed greater freedom of movement on the perimeter. His game would have ignited with today's rules.

[CTbasketball92]

Yeah the notion that those guys were "more talented" was always kinda off base. Kobe was, first of all, a lot more durable than both. But as far as game style, his agility/ability to change directions at near-top speed was on another level from those guys, as was his first step. He could get really low to the ground and, as good as VC and TMac were with body control, Kobe was at MJ levels with his finesse and overall balance. He's also got a level of footwork and aggression neither of them liked to or were able to play with. TMac was actually a very substandard finisher given his size and bounce.

[WhiteKyrie]

And this is an area of athleticism that is so extremely important but often overlooked.

Bingo. It’s extremely important. There is other aspects to athleticism, like vertical, hang time, first step burst, hand eye coordination, body control, footwork and durability. Based on those parameters 1) Jordan 2) Kobe 3) Wade when taking all that into account. Granted. I always considered McGrady and even VC to be more Small Forwards than shooting guards.

[j3lademaster]

Yeah the notion that those guys were "more talented" was always kinda off base. Kobe was, first of all, a lot more durable than both. But as far as game style, his agility/ability to change directions at near-top speed was on another level from those guys, as was his first step. He could get really low to the ground and, as good as VC and TMac were with body control, Kobe was at MJ levels with his finesse and overall balance. He's also got a level of footwork and aggression neither of them liked to or were able to play with. TMac was actually a very substandard finisher given his size and bounce.

I can agree with change of direction, but Tmac's first step was right there with Kobe's. And as far as body control and touch around the rim, VC had jelly layups to give anyone a run:

[Bronbron23]

There's this notion that Vince and McGrady were both more naturally talented than Kobe. They were both taller, longer-armed, and weighed more. Some say more athletic, too; I'm not sure if I agree -- athleticism is more than dunking.

The narrative is that Kobe made up for those comparative shortcomings by working harder. I'm not quite sure if that's true.

Kobe was undoubtedly in a better situation than the other two. Playing in LA, alongside Shaq put him front-and-center; all the eyes were on him. Playing with the big man also made things easier on the court; I'm sure Vince and Tracy would've done well in his place.

But to suggest that circumstance was the only difference between them? I don't agree. Kobe proved himself post-Shaq; he took his game to new heights.

I think people underrate Kobe's talent. There's more to natural talent than anthropomorphic measurements and vertical jumps.

Kobe probably worked harder, but I think he was simply a greater talent, to begin with.

What do you think?

1999-2000 to 2006-2007 season

Kobe:






Vince:






McGrady:

Yeah kobe was more talented plus he was much better defensively

[MadDog]

Defense & mental. Kobe's in-game iq & mental allowed him to push barriers. Sure Kobe was talented, but work ethic is what elevated him. Kobe and Bird's skills were so great, I always think of that "hard work beats talent" phrase. Those two embody that quote.

[bizil]

I consider Mamba the most skilled player of all time when you combine scoring skillset, handles, passing, and defense as a package. T Mac IN TERMS of offense is way up on that list as well. Things he could do at 6'8-6'9 was NEVER really seen before when he hit the scene. We had never seen a player that height with that type of skill, athletic ability, and positional versatility as a package. Just think Mamba's edge in defense AND focus was the difference. NOT SAYING T Mac was a slouch in those areas though. MJ, Kobe, T Mac, Wade, and West are the top five SG's ever peak wise in my opinion. If u consider T Mac a SF, I would ONLY take Bron, Bird, and KD over FOR SURE over him on a peak level. With all due respect to Vince, he's more in that 2nd tier of the great SG's peak-prime wise. Just think u got guys WHO COMBINED great scoring AND great all around ability on a level he never did. Vince still was a very good all around player. And of course was a great scorer!

[SaintzFury13]

None of this really matters because no matter who you argue is better offensively, Kobe was still leagues above both of them defensively so...