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  1. #46
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    Default Re: Top 50 All-Time List - Shot Clock Era = #23

    Quote Originally Posted by L.Kizzle View Post
    Mikan doesn't get ranked high because he played in the pre-shot clock era if anything. They didn't play in the same era. That's like saying Wilt played in the era with Mikan.

    He wasn't efficient, he shot the league average. He was not a bad defender at all. When Wilt joined the Lakers, he was a shell if himself.
    And he is not an empty stats player. A gut who is in the Finals damn near every season of his career is not putting up empty stats.
    He was in the NBA Finals or West Finals every season except for one season in his career.
    You have nothing to go off of to suggest that Elgin wasn't a bad defensive player. Defensive win shares, especially from that age, don't mean anything at all. LeBron still had good defensive win share stats in seasons where he straight up didn't play defense anymore. Guys like Jerry West and Hal Greer were well known for their defense. We never hear anything at all about Elgin's defense and there's probably a good reason for that.

    And once again (because you continue to disregard this for whatever reason), he played in an eight team league. What part of that do you not understand? I don't care that he made the finals as many times as he did. The fact that he never won once, even with Jerry West and eventually Wilt Chamberlin, tells me he was an empty stats player. If you had a guy who was capable of putting up numbers, which Elgin Baylor was capable of, and you had a decent supporting cast, which he did, getting to the finals wasn't difficult. I'm not saying Elgin isn't an all time great. I still acknowledge that he deserves to be in the top 50, just like Mikan does. But if his stats and finals appearances are the only thing you have to justify him being placed this high on the list, then at this point it's time to concede, because there are still many other players who had a more profound impact on the game with more impressive stats and a much better skillset that haven't made the list yet.

  2. #47
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    Default Re: Top 50 All-Time List - Shot Clock Era = #23

    Quote Originally Posted by SaintzFury13 View Post
    You have nothing to go off of to suggest that Elgin wasn't a bad defensive player. Defensive win shares, especially from that age, don't mean anything at all. LeBron still had good defensive win share stats in seasons where he straight up didn't play defense anymore. Guys like Jerry West and Hal Greer were well known for their defense. We never hear anything at all about Elgin's defense and there's probably a good reason for that.

    And once again (because you continue to disregard this for whatever reason), he played in an eight team league. What part of that do you not understand? I don't care that he made the finals as many times as he did. The fact that he never won once, even with Jerry West and eventually Wilt Chamberlin, tells me he was an empty stats player. If you had a guy who was capable of putting up numbers, which Elgin Baylor was capable of, and you had a decent supporting cast, which he did, getting to the finals wasn't difficult. I'm not saying Elgin isn't an all time great. I still acknowledge that he deserves to be in the top 50, just like Mikan does. But if his stats and finals appearances are the only thing you have to justify him being placed this high on the list, then at this point it's time to concede, because there are still many other players who had a more profound impact on the game with more impressive stats and a much better skillset that haven't made the list yet.
    I've only heard he was a bad defense player in his final seasons.
    And are you blaming those Finals loses on him and not West and Wilt. They were there too, and according to this list better than him.

    He lost four game 7s in the Finals. His empty stats were literally a filed goal away from being a top 10 player possibly.

    Lakers lost 62 Finals game 7 by 3 points.
    Lakers lost 66 Finals game 7 by 2 points.
    Lakers lost 69 Finals game 7 by 2 points.

  3. #48
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    Default Re: Top 50 All-Time List - Shot Clock Era = #23

    Quote Originally Posted by L.Kizzle View Post
    I've only heard he was a bad defense player in his final seasons.
    And are you blaming those Finals loses on him and not West and Wilt. They were there too, and according to this list better than him.

    He lost four game 7s in the Finals. His empty stats were literally a filed goal away from being a top 10 player possibly.

    Lakers lost 62 Finals game 7 by 3 points.
    Lakers lost 66 Finals game 7 by 2 points.
    Lakers lost 69 Finals game 7 by 2 points.
    And yet Jerry West and Wilt Chamberlin were at least very skilled players who didn't benefit entirely from the era in which they played in. I don't want to hear it.

    Although with that said... yeah Chamberlin definitely underperformed more than Baylor so I can't take that away.

  4. #49
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    Default Re: Top 50 All-Time List - Shot Clock Era = #23

    Quote Originally Posted by SaintzFury13 View Post
    And yet Jerry West and Wilt Chamberlin were at least very skilled players who didn't benefit entirely from the era in which they played in. I don't want to hear it.

    Although with that said... yeah Chamberlin definitely underperformed more than Baylor so I can't take that away.
    Now, I did look at those game 7 and he underperformed in the 69 one. Was himself in 66 (below his avg slightly) and great in 62.

    With that said,, Baylor was very skilled and was doing shots no one was doing back then. No one was doing reverse lay ups and up and unders moves. Watch videos of him compared to West, Robertson and Sam Jones and Hal Greer. Those guys were text book. Baylor was doin a lot of unorthodox shots and movements when I watch film of him that those guys were not doin. Hell, Robertson didn't even dunk (I don't think so.) Not that he couldn't but he just never did. Dr J always said he grew up watching Baylors moves.

  5. #50
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    Default Re: Top 50 All-Time List - Shot Clock Era = #23

    Quote Originally Posted by L.Kizzle View Post
    Now, I did look at those game 7 and he underperformed in the 69 one, badly. Was himself in 66 (below his avg slightly) and great in 62.

    With that said,, Baylor was very skilled and was doing shots no one was doing back then. No one was doing reverse lay ups and up and unders moves. Watch videos of him compared to West, Robertson and Sam Jones and Hal Greer. Those guys were text book. Baylor was doin a lot of unorthodox shots and movements when I watch film of him that those guys were not doin. Hell, Robertson didn't even dunk (I don't think so.) Not that he couldn't but he just never did. Dr J always said he grew up watching Baylors moves.
    I do recall Erving stating that Baylor was one of his biggest influences. Like I said before, Elgin is still a top 50 player. I've never stated otherwise. But I just don't think what he did was impressive enough to warrant him being this high on the all time great list. I always base whether or not someone is an all time great based on whether or not they would be able to have a similar type of impact in any other era that they play in. Again, Baylor's rebounding reduces drastically the moment you stick him in any other era because at that point the game changes drastically.

    And in all fairness to Baylor, everyone on the Lakers outside of West underperformed badly in 69. Baylor wasn't by any means the main reason they lost.

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    Default Re: Top 50 All-Time List - Shot Clock Era = #23

    Quote Originally Posted by SaintzFury13 View Post
    I do recall Erving stating that Baylor was one of his biggest influences. Like I said before, Elgin is still a top 50 player. I've never stated otherwise. But I just don't think what he did was impressive enough to warrant him being this high on the all time great list. I always base whether or not someone is an all time great based on whether or not they would be able to have a similar type of impact in any other era that they play in. Again, Baylor's rebounding reduces drastically the moment you stick him in any other era because at that point the game changes drastically.

    And in all fairness to Baylor, everyone on the Lakers outside of West underperformed badly in 69. Baylor wasn't by any means the main reason they lost.
    Understood.
    I tend to think Baylor would perform well in any era. He was athletic and quick. The most athletic swing of his era until Julius came along.
    He was 6'5. I don't see how he couldn't pull down boards like Barkley could at the same height and less athletic ability.

    And I don't mention the 8 team league because what is there to mention about. It was 8 teams, that's just how it was. And most of the time his team was 2 out of all the teams. To be fair, 9 teams by 61 and 14 by his last All-Star appereance in 1970 and 17 when he played his last game.

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    Default Re: Top 50 All-Time List - Shot Clock Era = #23

    Quote Originally Posted by L.Kizzle View Post
    Understood.
    I tend to think Baylor would perform well in any era. He was athletic and quick. The most athletic swing of his era until Julius came along.
    He was 6'5. I don't see how he couldn't pull down boards like Barkley could at the same height and less athletic ability.
    Because Barkley was a PF who played near the basket a lot on defense. Same with Dennis Rodman. This goes back to the "playing in different eras" argument that I am making. It's why I am not very impressed with Baylor's numbers like everyone else is.

    Quote Originally Posted by L.Kizzle View Post
    And I don't mention the 8 team league because what is there to mention about. It was 8 teams, that's just how it was. And most of the time his team was 2 out of all the teams. To be fair, 9 teams by 61 and 14 by his last All-Star appereance in 1970 and 17 when he played his last game.
    Yeah, and that by that point, he had Jerry West on his team and then when it got to 14, he had Wilt Chamberlin. When the league expanded, his team continued to get better, time and time again.

    My stance on the matter is simply never going to change. A top 30 player? A very, VERY slight MAYBE. But anything beyond that, like top 25, just no.

  8. #53
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    Default Re: Top 50 All-Time List - Shot Clock Era = #23

    Quote Originally Posted by L.Kizzle View Post
    Understood.
    I tend to think Baylor would perform well in any era. He was athletic and quick. The most athletic swing of his era until Julius came along.
    He was 6'5. I don't see how he couldn't pull down boards like Barkley could at the same height and less athletic ability.

    And I don't mention the 8 team league because what is there to mention about. It was 8 teams, that's just how it was. And most of the time his team was 2 out of all the teams. To be fair, 9 teams by 61 and 14 by his last All-Star appereance in 1970 and 17 when he played his last game.
    Honestly, the footage I see of Baylor doesn't lead me to believe he was more athletic than Barkley. Peak Sir Charles had like a 39" vertical with a quick 2nd jump and nose for the ball, and was one of the stronger players in the league. In the 61 season when Baylor averaged 20 boards the league shooting average was 42% on 109 attempts , in 87 when Barkley was grabbing 15 boards the league average was 48% on 89 attempts a game. Baylors era had 20 more shots a game while shooting the ball multitudes worse, there's just no way you can scale Baylor to like, 1990 and say oh yeah this guy is doing 12 boards a night. Not against all the bigs( including power forwards) of the period combined with improved efficiency( less missed shots available). I mean hell, Dennis Rodman would be grabbing 27 rebounds a night in a league taking 110 shots a game with low 40% percentage.

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    Default Re: Top 50 All-Time List - Shot Clock Era = #23

    Quote Originally Posted by SaintzFury13 View Post
    Because Barkley was a PF who played near the basket a lot on defense. Same with Dennis Rodman. This goes back to the "playing in different eras" argument that I am making. It's why I am not very impressed with Baylor's numbers like everyone else is.



    Yeah, and that by that point, he had Jerry West on his team and then when it got to 14, he had Wilt Chamberlin. When the league expanded, his team continued to get better, time and time again.

    My stance on the matter is simply never going to change. A top 30 player? A very, VERY slight MAYBE. But anything beyond that, like top 25, just no.
    Not disagreeing with you but he was different. Havlicek, a SF as well was getting no where close to Elgin Baylor boards. His peak wouldn't even be Baylor's lowest.
    I've heard people call him, not Wilt or Oscar or West or Russell the most important player of that era.
    Importance in how the game evolved.
    Every up and under shot and spin move in the air and dunking over a big man was Elgin Baylor.

  10. #55
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    Default Re: Top 50 All-Time List - Shot Clock Era = #23

    Quote Originally Posted by Phoenix View Post
    Honestly, the footage I see of Baylor doesn't lead me to believe he was more athletic than Barkley. Peak Sir Charles had like a 39" vertical with a quick 2nd jump and nose for the ball, and was one of the stronger players in the league. In the 61 season when Baylor averaged 20 boards the league shooting average was 42% on 109 attempts , in 87 when Barkley was grabbing 15 boards the league average was 48% on 89 attempts a game. Baylors era had 20 more shots a game while shooting the ball multitudes worse, there's just no way you can scale Baylor to like, 1990 and say oh yeah this guy is doing 12 boards a night. Not against all the bigs( including power forwards) of the period combined with improved efficiency( less missed shots available). I mean hell, Dennis Rodman would be grabbing 27 rebounds a night in a league taking 110 shots a game with low 40% percentage.
    Barkley is literally the only example you can use of a guy his height getting that many boards. It's not common in Baylor era or Chucks. Another name I thought about would be Larry Johnson. Zion or Adrian Dantley. High scorers but not the boards a Barkey or Elgin would get.

  11. #56
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    Default Re: Top 50 All-Time List - Shot Clock Era = #23

    Quote Originally Posted by L.Kizzle View Post
    Barkley is literally the only example you can use of a guy his height getting that many boards. It's not common in Baylor era or Chucks. Another name I thought about would be Larry Johnson. Zion or Adrian Dantley. High scorers but not the boards a Barkey or Elgin would get.
    No but comparatively speaking Barkley was more athletic based on what I've seen, he was more physically gifted ON-TOP of having the instincts for how the ball came off the rim and things of that nature. I'm not going to pretend like I know Baylor's game well enough to say if he had a similar nose, only that he played in an era where there were alot more rebounds available. That's an objective fact, an opinion would be whether his rebounding scales to Barkleys era. We simply don't know that.

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