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  1. #16
    NBA lottery pick Shogon's Avatar
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    Default Re: Charles BarkleyÂ’s advice to Shaq about Orlando.

    Quote Originally Posted by bladefd View Post
    Absolutely. I am not saying they or owners should not be insanely rich. All I'm saying is that a piece of the revenue should be pumped back into keeping league pass and tickets at least somewhat reasonably affordable. Otherwise it's a runaway train. Greed is a real thing. And it eats people from within. The more they make, the more they want.

    In the 80s and 90s, tickets were possible for anyone. Cable TV was affordable. I understand the game grew and demand went up. I expect costs to be raised but when I see how much revenue the league is getting, I ask myself why the costs keep rising of say nba league pass. We are already at $200 per season. Cable tv is getting outrageously expensive as tnt/espn/abc all want a bigger pie to pay for the ever increasing tv deals that put more money into the pockets of players/owners (tv deals which ultimately drive up the cost for everyone subscribing).
    They will charge as much as they can until it eats into their bottom line. If they charge $50 for league pass and it boosts their income to the point that all expenses considered, they are making more money overall... that's what they'll do. If the price point is $150, that's what they'll do. If the price point is $1500, that's what they'll do. If the price point is $15, that's what they'll do. It's just supply and demand. Nothing more or less. There can be human error in there, but I assume they've spent a significant amount of money and time reaching their price point.

    As for shogun's post.. At what point do you say enough?
    The NBA is not yet at "enough is enough" point. As long as the stadiums are still filled and advertisers and ISPs/cable providers are getting their money's worth through viewership to continue raising salaries, they should do it. If you think the NBA as a whole has reached overpaid status, don't support them. It's that simple. The only thing you can do about it is to vote with your eyes, your attention and your time.

    NBA players provide a great outlet for millions of people. They should be compensated accordingly. They are "forced"(if they want to be NBA players, anyways, which obviously they are not forced to be) to endure people prying into their personal lives, having to answer stupid questions for reporters, and being under the microscope by fans... all for our entertainment. They earn every cent. I would not trade places with those guys even if I got to have all of their money. **** that shit.

    On an individual level, I agree with the idea of when is enough enough. It doesn't really apply to companies, no. Greed out of corporations is ok. The problem with the current way a lot of corporations operate, however, is the fact that you have a bunch of people that often end up on the boards of these companies that had nothing to do with the company becoming successful in the first place. As a result, they are not emotionally attached to its continued success and they aren't looking at the long term(10+ years through infinity). They are only considering the short term and they are trying to line their pockets as quickly as possible. If the company fails as a result of their extreme greed, well it doesn't matter because they've made so much money in the short term, what do they care? It was never their baby. It was just their ATM. In the mean time, these are companies that only got as successful as they once did because they offered such a good product that society as a whole was willing to endure all of their competitors going out of business. Now that a psycho is running things, the competitor is gone and it could take decades for real competition to arise. That is the one true massive failure of capitalism, imo, regarding short to mid term problems. Long term? Those companies go out of business and all is right with the world again. The issue is that in the 20 or 30 years it takes for large corps that were once great to go out of business, they have inflicted a lifetime's worth of emotional pain on a substantial number of people.

    Perhaps there should be some sort of legislation that limits how much CEOs and board members can make that didn't found the companies that they're apart of, but in terms of limiting the company itself to be as profitable as possible long term? Nah. I'm not even sure how you would do it, to be honest. If you just made their income percentage based, they would still try to maximize it all. If you set a hard number, we'd have to constantly revise that number.

    But again, this really all boils down to the fact that life isn't fair. There's only so much we can do about it.

    Just because I don't support crony capitalism doesn't mean I am asking for charity or socialism.
    "Crony capitalism" is just a fancy way of saying "I don't understand that the root problem of why large corporations get bailed out and have unreasonable influence on our lives is mostly the size and influence of the federal government."

    Speaking of Bezos though...

    We all know Amazon is putting companies out of business. Imagine a day that Bezos has 0 influence at Amazon and imagine that just maybe they start to change their general viewpoint of trying to obsess over customer experience because some people take over that just want to bleed it for maximum profit. Imagine how bad the fallout for society will be as a result if Amazon takes it all over and then starts falling apart... lol.
    Last edited by Shogon; 10-18-2021 at 11:03 AM.

  2. #17
    Titles are overrated Kblaze8855's Avatar
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    Default Re: Charles BarkleyÂ’s advice to Shaq about Orlando.

    Just because I don't support crony capitalism doesn't mean I am asking for charity or socialism. .

    What would you call complaining about the wealth of people who own and usually founded giant companies?

    What’s your solution(since apparently it’s a problem) to founders of word changing companies being insanely wealthy?

    These people are not sitting on 200 billion in cash. Bezos has 200 billion in hypothetical worth…because he founded a company. To cash it out….hed have to give up that ownership. At that point he would have 200 billion in cash but till then….what?

    You think a companies hypothetical value should be capped? We should seize successful companies to make government assets? Sell them to the employees after forcing the founders out for nothing?

    How would you….if you founded Amazon….prevent yourself being richer than you deem necessary through any means other than giving away your company?

    Pay everyone 25 an hour instead of 18(what Amazon pays here). He’s still one of the wealthiest people ever. How do you remedy that problem other than having all successful founders walk away from their shares, donate the resulting cash, and I guess hope the board pinky swears they still get to run what they created?

    Or does your right to run your creation end when it’s too successful?

  3. #18
    The Renaissance man bladefd's Avatar
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    Default Re: Charles BarkleyÂ’s advice to Shaq about Orlando.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kblaze8855 View Post
    What would you call complaining about the wealth of people who own and usually founded giant companies?

    What’s your solution(since apparently it’s a problem) to founders of word changing companies being insanely wealthy?

    These people are not sitting on 200 billion in cash. Bezos has 200 billion in hypothetical worth…because he founded a company. To cash it out….hed have to give up that ownership. At that point he would have 200 billion in cash but till then….what?

    You think a companies hypothetical value should be capped? We should seize successful companies to make government assets? Sell them to the employees after forcing the founders out for nothing?

    How would you….if you founded Amazon….prevent yourself being richer than you deem necessary through any means other than giving away your company?

    Pay everyone 25 an hour instead of 18(what Amazon pays here). He’s still one of the wealthiest people ever. How do you remedy that problem other than having all successful founders walk away from their shares, donate the resulting cash, and I guess hope the board pinky swears they still get to run what they created?

    Or does your right to run your creation end when it’s too successful?
    Jeff bezos can borrow billions against the value of his stocks (collateral) without having to cash-out. Unless if he defaults on the borrowed sum, he can keep borrowing money and pay off previously borrowed money with more borrowed money. Just explaining that he doesn't have to cash out his money and can put up the stocks as collateral indefinitely. He can also issue more shares to raise money when he just wants to generate capital. That's besides the point though.

    Seize companies? No. However, there comes a time that you split companies. Like Amazon or Google or Facebook could be split into several companies. I don't know about the logistics of how it would work out, but you can't let these companies grow to infinite levels. There is a reason why monopolies have been banned.

    Since we are talking about Amazon, they are getting out of control pretty much like a monopoly, feeding up and taking out all of their competitors. Amazon has just put into motion plans to buyout an entire mall near me, and people are suing to stop that. They are pushing into every state and I won't be surprised if they push into every country, pushing out every store. Not just in retail, but also manufacturing. Amazon sees someone successful selling a product - Amazon starts manufacturing something very similar under Amazon company label, sells it by completely undercutting the pricing. That is not just in certain industries, but they keep pushing into new sectors.
    Last edited by bladefd; 10-18-2021 at 01:10 PM.

  4. #19
    The Renaissance man bladefd's Avatar
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    Default Re: Charles BarkleyÂ’s advice to Shaq about Orlando.

    Quote Originally Posted by Shogon View Post
    They will charge as much as they can until it eats into their bottom line. If they charge $50 for league pass and it boosts their income to the point that all expenses considered, they are making more money overall... that's what they'll do. If the price point is $150, that's what they'll do. If the price point is $1500, that's what they'll do. If the price point is $15, that's what they'll do. It's just supply and demand. Nothing more or less. There can be human error in there, but I assume they've spent a significant amount of money and time reaching their price point.



    The NBA is not yet at "enough is enough" point. As long as the stadiums are still filled and advertisers and ISPs/cable providers are getting their money's worth through viewership to continue raising salaries, they should do it. If you think the NBA as a whole has reached overpaid status, don't support them. It's that simple. The only thing you can do about it is to vote with your eyes, your attention and your time.

    NBA players provide a great outlet for millions of people. They should be compensated accordingly. They are "forced"(if they want to be NBA players, anyways, which obviously they are not forced to be) to endure people prying into their personal lives, having to answer stupid questions for reporters, and being under the microscope by fans... all for our entertainment. They earn every cent. I would not trade places with those guys even if I got to have all of their money. **** that shit.

    On an individual level, I agree with the idea of when is enough enough. It doesn't really apply to companies, no. Greed out of corporations is ok. The problem with the current way a lot of corporations operate, however, is the fact that you have a bunch of people that often end up on the boards of these companies that had nothing to do with the company becoming successful in the first place. As a result, they are not emotionally attached to its continued success and they aren't looking at the long term(10+ years through infinity). They are only considering the short term and they are trying to line their pockets as quickly as possible. If the company fails as a result of their extreme greed, well it doesn't matter because they've made so much money in the short term, what do they care? It was never their baby. It was just their ATM. In the mean time, these are companies that only got as successful as they once did because they offered such a good product that society as a whole was willing to endure all of their competitors going out of business. Now that a psycho is running things, the competitor is gone and it could take decades for real competition to arise. That is the one true massive failure of capitalism, imo, regarding short to mid term problems. Long term? Those companies go out of business and all is right with the world again. The issue is that in the 20 or 30 years it takes for large corps that were once great to go out of business, they have inflicted a lifetime's worth of emotional pain on a substantial number of people.

    Perhaps there should be some sort of legislation that limits how much CEOs and board members can make that didn't found the companies that they're apart of, but in terms of limiting the company itself to be as profitable as possible long term? Nah. I'm not even sure how you would do it, to be honest. If you just made their income percentage based, they would still try to maximize it all. If you set a hard number, we'd have to constantly revise that number.

    But again, this really all boils down to the fact that life isn't fair. There's only so much we can do about it.

    I agree there is not much we can do. Nba can charge whatever sum they want for their products. All we can do is not buy. It's just how it is. We can beg or petition companies to charge less - not that they would ever listen.

    My whole point was simply that it doesn't have to be an argument of "players or owners?" as if those 2 were the only involved parties. I would expect more money going into improving fan experience, which includes the cost of watching the games. Do I expect the NBA to do that?? Probably should not. We are living in a runaway corporatism system (another name is extreme capitalism) where corporations/bottom-line rules our world sadly with ethics of business out the window in the name of the bottom-line. It is the way it is.
    Last edited by bladefd; 10-18-2021 at 01:31 PM.

  5. #20
    Titles are overrated Kblaze8855's Avatar
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    Default Re: Charles BarkleyÂ’s advice to Shaq about Orlando.

    Let me ask again since I’ve yet to get an answer from anyone I’ve ever asked….


    You go start a company yourself. It kicks ass.

    Its valued at a tremendous sum of money. You are a billionaire due to the value of your company.

    Its more value than anyone needs but it isn’t cash.

    What do YOU do to prevent your wealth increasing?

    Cash out either by selling or using it as collateral(which essentially makes it an asset of the person loaning you the money but we can ignore that)…..which reduces your stake.

    Your cure is to simply give away your company for money which I suppose you then donate….

    But the company is still there. Someone else may run it but it exists. Bezos selling out doesn’t remove Amazon. It just makes him liquid. So he can then give it away….and not run his company unless they choose to allow it.

    I think he’s already at like 9-10 percent. He should go to zero and give the money away….but you aren’t saying it should be charity and you don’t support socialism?

    Your solution is to take a company by force from its founder when it does too well….break it up.

    Ok.

    Now he’s worth what? Do you think he’s not still waaaaaay richer than whatever you call enough?

    How does that fix the problem?

    He built the company. You can ask him to give his money away or you can use government intervention to steal it for their use.

    If those are your desired outcomes fine. Just say that. Because there is no other way to prevent insane wealth of guys on the ground floor of massive companies.

    You leave your company and give it away or the government takes it.

    If you want them all to walk away and let their boards replace them as they cash out and give the money to the state to distribute or like….the homeless vets…. just say that.

    But don’t say that and also say you aren’t asking for charity or pro wealth redistribution. You can be pro those things. But it would be nice to be it directly.

  6. #21
    The Renaissance man bladefd's Avatar
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    Default Re: Charles BarkleyÂ’s advice to Shaq about Orlando.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kblaze8855 View Post
    Let me ask again since I’ve yet to get an answer from anyone I’ve ever asked….


    You go start a company yourself. It kicks ass.

    Its valued at a tremendous sum of money. You are a billionaire due to the value of your company.

    Its more value than anyone needs but it isn’t cash.

    What do YOU do to prevent your wealth increasing?

    Cash out either by selling or using it as collateral(which essentially makes it an asset of the person loaning you the money but we can ignore that)…..which reduces your stake.

    Your cure is to simply give away your company for money which I suppose you then donate….

    But the company is still there. Someone else may run it but it exists. Bezos selling out doesn’t remove Amazon. It just makes him liquid. So he can then give it away….and not run his company unless they choose to allow it.

    I think he’s already at like 9-10 percent. He should go to zero and give the money away….but you aren’t saying it should be charity and you don’t support socialism?

    Your solution is to take a company by force from its founder when it does too well….break it up.

    Ok.

    Now he’s worth what? Do you think he’s not still waaaaaay richer than whatever you call enough?

    How does that fix the problem?

    He built the company. You can ask him to give his money away or you can use government intervention to steal it for their use.

    If those are your desired outcomes fine. Just say that. Because there is no other way to prevent insane wealth of guys on the ground floor of massive companies.

    You leave your company and give it away or the government takes it.

    If you want them all to walk away and let their boards replace them as they cash out and give the money to the state to distribute or like….the homeless vets…. just say that.

    But don’t say that and also say you aren’t asking for charity or pro wealth redistribution. You can be pro those things. But it would be nice to be it directly.
    I suggest breaking it up at some point into multiple companies. That facilitates competition. Break Amazon into retail company, streaming company, etc - essentially treat it like any monopoly. Monopolies are illegal in this country, right? The only reason why Amazon skips over that designation is because they don't yet control entire sectors - they will be considered monopoly after they take all of their competitors out. They are being smart in how they take out their competition. Anti-trust laws have not yet caught on to stop Amazon from eating up every industry, but that is exactly what is happening.

    Corporatism is the extreme end of the capitalism when competition goes out the window. What these mega-corporations are doing is anti-competitive. Anyone who supports capitalism should be freaking out about what the future holds as we move deep into corporatism.

  7. #22
    Titles are overrated Kblaze8855's Avatar
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    Default Re: Charles BarkleyÂ’s advice to Shaq about Orlando.

    Once again since I’m still waiting…..


    You start a company. You. It goes from you and your friends to the 3rd largest manufacturer of ____ in the world. You’re worth 2 billion.

    Do you cash out and give it away…,putting your company in the hands of people who are just gonna keep growing it anyway once you leave?

    How do you prevent your well run company from producing people who’s equity in it makes them too rich?

    You can absolutely break it up among the employees to run….all of which would hope to use it to reach enough wealth to quit…but you could do that.

    That your solution?

    Hand over control, give your liquid assets away till you are merely comfortable, and watch your company be run by people you now can’t direct?

    Sell out for pennies like Colonel Sanders and get sued when you try to sell your own original recipe because they ruined your food for profit once you weren’t there to make them put quality over business?

  8. #23
    The Renaissance man bladefd's Avatar
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    Default Re: Charles BarkleyÂ’s advice to Shaq about Orlando.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kblaze8855 View Post
    Once again since I’m still waiting…..


    You start a company. You. It goes from you and your friends to the 3rd largest manufacturer of ____ in the world. You’re worth 2 billion.

    Do you cash out and give it away…,putting your company in the hands of people who are just gonna keep growing it anyway once you leave?

    How do you prevent your well run company from producing people who’s equity in it makes them too rich?

    You can absolutely break it up among the employees to run….all of which would hope to use it to reach enough wealth to quit…but you could do that.

    That your solution?

    Hand over control, give your liquid assets away till you are merely comfortable, and watch your company be run by people you now can’t direct?

    Sell out for pennies like Colonel Sanders and get sued when you try to sell your own original recipe because they ruined your food for profit once you weren’t there to make them put quality over business?
    If I'm the ceo of that corporation, I don't know where my ego would be at. Would I be the same person I'm now or would I be a greedy savage S.O.B? It's hard to say. If I do gain massive ego and lose my way then I would probably just keep expanding infinitely. I would probably get corrupt and not be the same person as I'm right now. Greed may take me over like most human handed the reins to power and wealth (only a rare few would be able to resist that urge like Gandhi or someone). The present me would want that future potential blood-hungry version of me from going out of control.

    However, would you be okay with one corporation controlling every aspect of your life? Are monopolies good for everyone outside of the ceo/direct stakeholders? Is that where we are at now, normalizing monopolies? I am against governments having too much power (we are at the very edge right now imo of too much power), now a single corporation or several corporations controlling everything? Hell no, I would not want that. Competition matters. Ethics matter. Justice system exists for a reason to protect individuals, democracy and society.
    Last edited by bladefd; 10-18-2021 at 03:11 PM.

  9. #24
    NBA sixth man of the year FultzNationRISE's Avatar
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    Default Re: Charles BarkleyÂ’s advice to Shaq about Orlando.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kblaze8855 View Post
    You can absolutely break it up among the employees to run….all of which would hope to use it to reach enough wealth to quit…but you could do that.

    That your solution?

    Hand over control, give your liquid assets away till you are merely comfortable, and watch your company be run by people you now can’t direct?

    Sell out for pennies like Colonel Sanders and get sued when you try to sell your own original recipe because they ruined your food for profit once you weren’t there to make them put quality over business?
    Cant even do that.

    If you give it away to other executive board members it doesnt solve anything bc theyre also filthy rich.

    If you literally GIVE controlling interest and responsibility for the company to people sweeping floors and putting stuff in boxes... lol. Imagine thinking that ever works in the real world and not just in the fantasy imagination of soyboy heads. The company will disintegrate in days. LOL at a serious company being run democratically by people who know nothing about business.

    If you got no teeth, youre just not born to eat steak. Thats reality for some people. Bladefd dont wanna live with it because he’s left nibbling on grass.
    Last edited by FultzNationRISE; 10-18-2021 at 03:39 PM.

  10. #25
    Titles are overrated Kblaze8855's Avatar
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    Default Re: Charles BarkleyÂ’s advice to Shaq about Orlando.

    I’m not asking who you might be. I’m asking you today. Your current belief system.

    Your company you built from nothing is worth 3.5 billion and you personally own a majority.

    How do you get out of that?

    Give up control to people who will simply corrupt it when you’re gone? Try to somehow put it out of business as you go and everyone loses their jobs?

    Whats your solution?

    Plenty of founders have sold out for millions before the company ends up worth billions. Not exactly stopping the machine.

    You could be that Wayne guy from Apple who would be richer than Bezos if he didn’t give up his 10 percent the first year. See how much you can help society that way.

  11. #26
    Titles are overrated Kblaze8855's Avatar
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    Default Re: Charles BarkleyÂ’s advice to Shaq about Orlando.

    Quote Originally Posted by FultzNationRISE View Post
    Cant even do that.

    If you give it away to other executive board members it doesnt solve anything bc theyre also filthy rich.

    If you literally GIVE controlling interest and responsibility for the company to people sweeping floors and putting stuff in boxes... lol. Imagine thinking that ever works in the real world and not just in the fantasy imagination of soyboy heads. The company will disintegrate in days. LOL at a serious company being run democratically by people who know nothing about business.

    If you got no teeth, youre just not born to eat steak. Thats reality for some people. Bladefd dont wanna live with it because he’s left nibbling on grass.

    I was thinking a Green Bay packers situation. Thousands of owners who I suppose could elect a board.

    It wouldn’t work but you could try it. Eventually it would just be in the hands of some outsider who got the small time people to sell out for short term profit. Like 9 rich guys would own 8 percent each just off giving your employees peanuts for their shares they wouldn’t appreciate because they didn’t bleed for the business like you did.

  12. #27
    7-time NBA All-Star tontoz's Avatar
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    Default Re: Charles BarkleyÂ’s advice to Shaq about Orlando.

    For the record there were no max contracts back in '96. That rule came into play a few years later. Maybe Shaq's departure was part of the reason they started having max salaries.

    I don't get caught up in salaries. I only look at salaries in terms of how they compare among other players. The 'players make too much' narrative is not worth responding to imo.

  13. #28
    I get superstar calls j3lademaster's Avatar
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    Default Re: Charles BarkleyÂ’s advice to Shaq about Orlando.

    Quote Originally Posted by tontoz View Post
    For the record there were no max contracts back in '96. That rule came into play a few years later. Maybe Shaq's departure was part of the reason they started having max salaries.

    I don't get caught up in salaries. I only look at salaries in terms of how they compare among other players. The 'players make too much' narrative is not worth responding to imo.
    I think it was the Kevin Garnett contract that did that.

  14. #29
    Is it in you? hateraid's Avatar
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    Default Re: Charles Barkley’s advice to Shaq about Orlando.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kblaze8855 View Post
    After an infamous poll many of you may not remember hearing about….
    Weird how he'd chastize Simmons under similar pretenses

  15. #30
    The Renaissance man bladefd's Avatar
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    Default Re: Charles BarkleyÂ’s advice to Shaq about Orlando.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kblaze8855 View Post
    I’m not asking who you might be. I’m asking you today. Your current belief system.

    Your company you built from nothing is worth 3.5 billion and you personally own a majority.

    How do you get out of that?

    Give up control to people who will simply corrupt it when you’re gone? Try to somehow put it out of business as you go and everyone loses their jobs?

    Whats your solution?

    Plenty of founders have sold out for millions before the company ends up worth billions. Not exactly stopping the machine.

    You could be that Wayne guy from Apple who would be richer than Bezos if he didn’t give up his 10 percent the first year. See how much you can help society that way.
    I told you. I would not try to get out and would fight it with tons of lawyers. At some point, it essentially becomes a game. I would keep pushing it and expanding, buying up everything. The board (they would not if they are making millions) or SEC or Congress would have to get me to stop through antitrust laws.

    Nobody willingly gives up power. Or sells a portion of their company for money. It stops being about money at some point. You think Amazon is buying up everything and taking companies out of business across multiple sectors for purely money? I don't think so tbh. It's the growth mentality that you don't know when to stop. Greed begets more greed. Bezos won't willingly say "hey guys, let's stop this insane growth mentality. We are already worth over $2 trillion. Lets stop f*cking over our competition by undercutting everyone."

    So you would have to ask me from Congress' perspective or the SEC. Congress can update antitrust laws that would include the business model of companies like Amazon. You break them up the same way as monopolies. Google search shows the Sherman Antitrust Act, which was used in early 1900s to break up companies. John Rockefeller's oil company was split into multiple separate companies ( https://www.britannica.com/topic/Standard-Oil ). Pretty crazy that exxon, chevron, bp, mobil all can be traced back to this Rockefeller oil split a century back along with bunch of other companies that went out of business or acquired by other companies.

    I don't know exactly how Amazon would be broken up since they don't usually make their own products, but Apple/Microsoft would probably be pretty easy. Hardware division, software division, Apple store division each a separate company handling their own area. Microsoft doesn't make hardware anymore after failed Microsoft phones, but you can probably have OS+software division and Azure (cloud hosting) division. Who would run the two split companies? Up to the respective boards to figure it out.

    Original founders are long gone for many of these companies. Steve Jobs started Apple and Bill Gates started Microsoft - neither have been CEOs in many many years.. Elon musk will burn out at some point. Bezos is leaving as Amazon CEO after getting burned out. Zuckerberg is still fairly young but give it another few years
    Last edited by bladefd; 10-18-2021 at 07:56 PM.

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