View Poll Results: Why do so many teams "go off" or "get hot" on Lebron's teams?

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  • Lebron is the worst defensive leader ever, so all his teams "just play bad defense"

    5 38.46%
  • Ball-dominant offenses let the defense rest, so they have more capacity to go off offensively

    8 61.54%
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  1. #16
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    Default Re: Why do so many teams "get hot" on Lebron's teams?

    Quote Originally Posted by SouBeachTalents View Post
    Well they were certainly blowing them out in the clincher. The Lakers lost by an average of over 25 ppg in the clinching games of those series, with Kobe playing like absolute dogshit in virtually all of them.

    This is a symptom of Lebron's because no one lost with good casts more than Lebron, aka favorites, top seeds, Finals teams and teams with all-stars.

    it's an attrition battle that is specific to 2 teams in a given series - Lebron's ball-dominance loses this battle to zippy ball movement, so the opponent is always fresher with more capacity to go off offensively

  2. #17
    NBA Legend AirBonner's Avatar
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    Default Re: Why do so many teams "get hot" on Lebron's teams?

    Kobe lost with absolute prime Shaq. That’s the worst sin ever

  3. #18
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    Default Re: Why do so many teams "get hot" on Lebron's teams?

    Quote Originally Posted by AirBonner View Post
    Kobe lost with absolute prime Shaq. That’s the worst sin ever

    Kobe 3-peated and met expectation far more than Lebron, and Kobe didn't have low ball movement teams like Lebron.

    Consequently, no one lost with good casts more than Lebron, aka favorites, top seeds, Finals teams and teams with all-stars.

  4. #19
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    Default Re: Why do so many teams "get hot" on Lebron's teams?

    .
    Here's why it matters that the Lakers were out-assisted by the Pacers last night and also Finals losses (thread cliffs):


    Opponents don't have to work as hard defensively against low movement or low assist teams and therefore have more capacity to go off offensively.

    So the defensive requirements are greater for low assist teams like Lebron's teams, who don't wear down opponents sufficiently to blunt/reduce their attack..

    That's why all these opponents "get hot" against Lebron's teams - it's either that or Lebron is the worst defensive leader ever.

  5. #20
    I go HAM TheCorporation's Avatar
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    Default Re: Why do so many teams "get hot" on Lebron's teams?

    Quote Originally Posted by SouBeachTalents View Post
    Lets see how much some of these teams actually "went off"

    2009 Magic
    Regular season: 101 ppg, 109.2 ORTG
    vs. Cavs: 103.7 ppg, 113.3 ORTG

    2010 Celtics
    Regular season: 99.2 ppg, 107.7 ORTG
    vs. Cavs: 100.5 ppg, 108.8 ORTG

    2011 Mavs
    Regular season: 100.2 ppg, 109.7 ORTG
    vs. Heat: 94.7 ppg, 110.7 ORTG

    2014 Spurs
    Regular season: 105.4 ppg, 110.5 ORTG
    vs. Heat: 105.6 ppg, 120.8 ORTG

    2021 Suns
    Regular season: 115.3 ppg, 117.2 ORTG
    vs. Lakers: 104 ppg, 111.9 ORTG

    The Suns were significantly worse across the board, the Mavs had a clear drop off in ppg, and the Celtics had an essentially negligible increase. The only increase in number that truly jumps out to you is the Spurs ORTG, but even they averaged a nearly identical ppg that they did in the regular season.

    Let's take a look at some of OP's favorite players series

    2003 Spurs
    Regular season: 95.8 ppg, 105.6 ORTG
    vs. Lakers: 99.5 ppg, 110.1 ORTG

    2004 Pistons
    Regular season: 90.2 ppg, 102 ORTG
    vs. Lakers: 90.8 ppg, 106.7 ORTG

    2008 Celtics
    Regular season: 100.5 ppg, 110.2 ORTG
    vs. Lakers: 102.2 ppg, 113.3 ORTG

    2011 Mavs
    Regular season: 100.2 ppg, 109.7 ORTG
    vs. Lakers: 102.3 ppg, 116.7 ORTG

    Looks like his teams fall into the same pattern defensively in several series.
    And we're done here

  6. #21
    Goatbrook SouBeachTalents's Avatar
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    Default Re: Why do so many teams "get hot" on Lebron's teams?

    Quote Originally Posted by 3ba11 View Post
    This is a symptom of Lebron's because no one lost with good casts more than Lebron, aka favorites, top seeds, Finals teams and teams with all-stars.

    it's an attrition battle that is specific to 2 teams in a given series - Lebron's ball-dominance loses this battle to zippy ball movement, so the opponent is always fresher with more capacity to go off offensively
    Literally nothing to do with anything I said I guess 3bot was unable to explain why Kobe’s teams got lit up so often in the playoffs.

  7. #22
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    Default Re: Why do so many teams "get hot" on Lebron's teams?

    Quote Originally Posted by TheCorporation View Post
    And we're done here

    Nope, SouBeach conceded in post #14 that it's specific to each series - if one team is blowing out another team in a game or series, they might be below their regular season averages but still blowing out the opponent in that particular game or series (winning the attrition battle).

    After conceding the point, he diverted the conversation to Kobe's losses

  8. #23
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    Default Re: Why do so many teams "get hot" on Lebron's teams?

    Quote Originally Posted by ShawkFactory View Post

    The only teams there that "got hot" in a sense that they played better than normal offensively were in 09 Magic and 14 Spurs. And even IF it were true for all seven of those teams (its not), that's still 7/50 playoff series Lebron has been a part of in his career.

    No, as SouBeach pointed out - it isn't about a team's "normal" performance - it's about how hot a team gets relative to their opponent in a series.

    that's the attrition battle being waged, so a team can drastically underperform their regular season numbers but still be blowing the doors off a particular opponent in a playoff series.

    So again, Lebron's frontcourt ball-dominance doesn't shift defenses/wear down teams like the ball movement he faces (especially on the championship level), so opponents are always fresher with more capacity to go off offensively.

  9. #24
    NBA Legend and Hall of Famer tpols's Avatar
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    Default Re: Why do so many teams "get hot" on Lebron's teams?

    When one guy does all the dribbling 3-4 defenders get to rest which leaves them fresh. Meanwhile you have to sprint around the court like a maniac trying to defend everybody on spurs or warriors. Fatigue isn't a myth. Its science bro.

    Notice the first games of the 2011, 2014 and 2018 series were all close. The tidal waves opened later in the series when they got tired. I remember even in 2016 there were huge gaps between games. It wasnt every other day. Not only did it break momentum but it allowed them to recharge when they were tired.

  10. #25
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    Default Re: Why do so many teams "get hot" on Lebron's teams?

    Quote Originally Posted by tpols View Post
    When one guy does all the dribbling 3-4 defenders get to rest which leaves them fresh. Meanwhile you have to sprint around the court like a maniac trying to defend everybody on spurs or warriors. Fatigue isn't a myth. Its science bro.

    Notice the first games of the 2011, 2014 and 2018 series were all close. The tidal waves opened later in the series when they got tired. I remember even in 2016 there were huge gaps between games. It wasnt every other day. Not only did it break momentum and but it allowed them to recharge when they were tired.

    Indeed, Lebron's teams were getting beat by more and more as the series wore on - that's what happens when a team is applying less pressure than they're facing and gradually getting overtaken more and more (losing the attrition battle)..

    in addition to applying the inferior pressure, the more predictable attack of ball-dominance gets figured out more and more as the series wore on.. Lebron lost the last 3 games of nearly every series that he lost

  11. #26
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    Default Re: Why do so many teams "get hot" on Lebron's teams?

    Quote Originally Posted by 3ba11 View Post
    No, as SouBeach pointed out - it isn't about a team's "normal" performance - it's about how hot a team gets relative to their opponent in a series.

    that's the attrition battle being waged, so a team can drastically underperform their regular season numbers but still be blowing the doors off a particular opponent in a playoff series.

    So again, Lebron's frontcourt ball-dominance doesn't shift defenses/wear down teams like the ball movement he faces (especially on the championship level), so opponents are always fresher with more capacity to go off offensively.
    Then that's not "getting hot". That's just outperforming a team.

  12. #27
    Goatbrook SouBeachTalents's Avatar
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    Default Re: Why do so many teams "get hot" on Lebron's teams?

    Quote Originally Posted by 3ba11 View Post
    Indeed, Lebron's teams were getting beat by more and more as the series wore on - that's what happens when a team is applying less pressure than they're facing and gradually getting overtaken more and more (losing the attrition battle)..

    in addition to applying the inferior pressure, the more predictable attack of ball-dominance gets figured out more and more as the series wore on.. Lebron lost the last 3 games of nearly every series that he lost
    Kobe lost the last 3 games of a series in 2004, 2006 & 2011, two of those with HCA and as the favorite.

    And you want to talk about getting beat by more as the series went on, Kobe's teams took historic beatings in elimination games

    2003: 28 point loss at home
    2004: 13 point loss, trailed by 28 with 4:30 to go
    2006: Lost by 31
    2007: Lost by 9
    2008: Lost by 39
    2011: Lost by 36
    2012: Lost by 16

    Average margin of defeat: 25 ppg, no other player comes CLOSE to this

  13. #28
    I go HAM TheCorporation's Avatar
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    Default Re: Why do so many teams "get hot" on Lebron's teams?

    Quote Originally Posted by SouBeachTalents View Post
    Kobe lost the last 3 games of a series in 2004, 2006 & 2011, two of those with HCA and as the favorite.

    And you want to talk about getting beat by more as the series went on, Kobe's teams took historic beatings in elimination games

    2003: 28 point loss at home
    2004: 13 point loss, trailed by 28 with 4:30 to go
    2006: Lost by 31
    2007: Lost by 9
    2008: Lost by 39
    2011: Lost by 36
    2012: Lost by 16

    Average margin of defeat: 25 ppg, no other player comes CLOSE to this
    Ouch Is Kobe still top 12 after this?

  14. #29
    Seething... ClipperRevival's Avatar
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    Default Re: Why do so many teams "get hot" on Lebron's teams?

    It's also the simple fact that LeBron is an overrated defender. Sure, when he's engaged he's very good but most times, that engagement just isn't there, especially when he's losing. That's when his teammates see the body language and follow suit. Defense is about consistent effort. Some guys just ain't about that D life. Bron just dabled in it from time to time. MJ went hard on D every game and led by example.

  15. #30
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    Default Re: Why do so many teams "get hot" on Lebron's teams?

    Quote Originally Posted by ClipperRevival View Post
    It's also the simple fact that LeBron is an overrated defender. Sure, when he's engaged he's very good but most times, that engagement just isn't there, especially when he's losing. That's when his teammates see the body language and follow suit. Defense is about consistent effort. Some guys just ain't about that D life. Bron just dabled in it from time to time. MJ went hard on D every game and led by example.
    You are the definition of a highlight and box score watching casual. Literally whenever LeBron had capable defenders, his teams were among the best defensive teams in the NBA. The exact opposite of what you said actually happens, and you'd know that if you actually watched the games. LeBron gives up on a couple of defensive plays of game, but he still is an above average defender.

    The Cavs for example, had Kyrie and Love. You're not going to be an elite defensive team with those two players. Even this current Lakers team was dog shit defenders in Monk, WB, Melo, etc.. One player can't anchor a defense, when the rest are trash. GP is one of the GOAT defenders and yet, he didn't always anchor a top 10 defense.

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