Another commentator saying Pippen was on Jordan's level in 96.

[97 bulls]

They actually don't though. In 98, Jordan's win percentage without Pippen was better than the win % Pippen's Bulls had in 94. Using team stats to credit one individual is asinine anyway - but as usual you're wrong. Compared to Pippen's defense and extra rebounds and assists, Jordan's offense coupled with his defense brought more to the table.

In the playoffs and finals, the gap only widened. Having Jordan who could get you a bucket anytime in the half-court (unlike Pippen who shot miserably during the second 3-peat), or when the game is on the line, is what's premium here. It makes sense too, because Jordan's REAL +/- (isolated impact to the team) dwarfed Pippen's.

MJ was the man in Chicago. And his effect on the game was irreplaceable. Move on and accept it, fanboy.

The Bulls replaced Pippen with Scott Burrell who was much better than the replacement that they picked for Jordan in Pete Myers. The 94 Bulls had Kukoc as a rookie, where as the 98 Bulls had a more established Kukoc. The 94 team had a very good PF in Horace Grant. The 98 Bulls had future hall of famer and all time rebounder in Dennis Rodman. Factor all that, and the Bulls W-L record was only slightly better in 98 vs 94.

Again, stats don't tell the whole story, Pippen wasn't concerned about getting stats, he was concerned about winning.

[SATAN]

Hey 97 bulls you might be interested in this video:

[Gohan]

If Pippen was the one that took 2 years off to quit / rest up he'd be killing it and MJ would be breaking down.

Are you this stupid? If all it took was taking seasons off from playing basketball then alot of superstars should take off.

[Baller789]

Are you this stupid? If all it took was taking seasons off from playing basketball then alot of superstars should take off.

Yes he is that stupid.
You are correct.

[MadDog]

The Bulls replaced Pippen with Scott Burrell who was much better than the replacement that they picked for Jordan in Pete Myers. The 94 Bulls had Kukoc as a rookie, where as the 98 Bulls had a more established Kukoc. The 94 team had a very good PF in Horace Grant. The 98 Bulls had future hall of famer and all time rebounder in Dennis Rodman. Factor all that, and the Bulls W-L record was only slightly better in 98 vs 94.

Again, stats don't tell the whole story, Pippen wasn't concerned about getting stats, he was concerned about winning.

But the 94 Bulls had Horace Grant and BJ Armstrong. Both were all-stars that year. The 94 team was deeper, and why many think they're the best version with MJ. In 98, though, Jordan carried on offense and was still very good on defense (1st team on that end).

You dont need "stats" telling you Jordan was their best offensive player (much better: shooter, finisher, scorer, in isos and triple threat; comparable playmaking as well). And a close second to Pippen on defense. What's more, the playoffs showed Jordan's impact had more weight. A lot more.

[Hey Yo]

Are you this stupid? If all it took was taking seasons off from playing basketball then alot of superstars should take off.

MJ was still under contract and getting paid to not play basketball in his prime. Don't think other owners would do that for their players.

[3ba11]

And a close second to Pippen on defense.

If Jordan was 2nd to Pippen on defense, why was Jordan DPOY and got more DPOY votes every year except 96 & 97'?

Why was MJ the primary defender on Magic, Drexler, Payton, Miller and Isiah, while Pippen was almost never the primary defender on the opponent's best player?

Pippen was 9th for DPOY in 98' and Jordan was 4th, while Pippen got no votes in 93' and Jordan was 2nd..

And why do you keep saying Pippen averaged more assists when Jordan averaged more for their Finals career, playoff career, and regular season career?.. why keep lying?.. Pippen couldn't average over 7 apg (Jordan did many series) and Pippen was never DPOY, so Jordan was a better defender, passer and doubled Pippen's scoring (the only player that carried the scoring load in every series)

[Ne 1]

If Jordan was 2nd to Pippen on defense, why was Jordan DPOY and got more DPOY votes every year except 96 & 97'?

Why was MJ the primary defender on Magic, Drexler, Payton and Isiah, while Pippen was almost never the primary defender on the opponent's best player?

Pippen was 9th for DPOY in 98' and Jordan was 4th, while Pippen got no votes in 93' and Jordan was 2nd..

And why do you keep saying Pippen averaged more assists when Jordan averaged more for their Finals career, playoff career, and regular season career?.. why keep lying?.. Pippen couldn't average over 7 apg (Jordan did many times) and Pippen was never DPOY

They finished tied for 7th place in DPOY voting in 91, tied for 3rd in 92 & Scottie Pippen finished ahead of him in 96 & 97.

[3ba11]

They finished tied for 7th place in DPOY voting in 91, tied for 3rd in 92 & Scottie Pippen finished ahead of him in 96 & 97.

So Jordan finished far ahead of him most years - how does finishing ahead most years make Jordan behind Pippen on defense ? Why are you lying about Pippen

[Micku]

Well, the facts (IE wins) tell a different story. Pippen wasn't a stats guy. He did what he needed to do to win. Jordan was a stats guy. Doesn't mean Jordan Isn't the GOAT, but Pippen is a great player. And was equally important ti the Bulls success.

I don't know about equal.

Like I know there players that you can't determine everything on stats, but this is different. While Pippen was really important to the team success, as stated, MJ posted up legendary advance metrics stats and +/- stats that are among the best in nba history. He is number 1 in the league history in +/- according to b-ball-reference. But there are many different plus/minus stats out there and what you prefer. Even in real plus/minus stats with epsn uses, it shows MJ being the best in the league in 97.

As you can see here:
http://www.espn.com/nba/statistics/rpm/_/year/1997
All in the year 97.
MJ has OBPM of 5.15
DBPM of 2.47
total 7.62

Pippen has an OBPM of 3.87
DBPM of 0.90
total of 4.77.

MJ always lead the team in +/- stats. While the stats can indeed be deceiving, depending on what line up you use and how you use the stats in general; like comparing player a is better than player b on a different team cuz he is better plus/minus. That's the wrong way to use it. But using on the same team, that's more crucial in depending which player provides the most contribution on the floor. And granted, it really depends on the lineup, but MJ consistently was the best every year when he was on the bulls. In the playoffs, I believe it was closer in the late 90s....maybe? But MJ always edges out. He was always the best in the league except for a few years while he was with the bulls.

And that comment that commentator made, further proves the significance of MJ. Like Pippen "finally" is playing really good to be even on the level as MJ in terms of importance of the team. This implies he wasn't as important the years prior. And as the stats indicates, he still wasn't. And these are stats before it became popular. Imo, it just shows reconfirms how great MJ was during their dynasty.

Though stats don't always tell the whole story. Just cuz someone has a better DBPM doesn't always mean they are better defensively or vice versa. Pippen do things that the stats don't pick up and it also contribute to the wins. You do have players like that. Stats don't tell how you how great their communication is, how well they shut down a play entirely, or the right pass etc. It also depends on the sample size and how you use the stats.

But with that said, the stats of MJ are too great. His net value of the team is not only historic, it's among the league's best in nba history. And it's always among the best in the league the years that he played. As good as Pippen was, I think it's hard argument to say he was as important as MJ due to obvious statistical disadvantage on the same team. Not only do we have the eye tests, we had the raw stats and advance stats that came later. But he was no bum for sure. Even if you use raw plus/minus stats, Pippen was right up there with MJ. To show he ain't no scrub. The GSW subreddit posted up a stat recently to show how close Pippen was to MJ in those raw stats.

https://www.reddit.com/r/warriors/co...tm_name=iossmf

But again, it's how you use the stats and what stats you are using. Like the GSW pic for example, if you use the stats to say Dray is better LeBron 09, that is the wrong way to use'em. If you use it to say Dray was extremely important to the GSW, then that's better. Especially raw numbers.

But again, I ain't saying Pippen ain't great. Pippen was amazing and probably the best second option of the 90s you can have. At least it in certain years. But MJ was always better, the better player and more important than Pippen to the team in terms production. They aren't equal. And it's many stats. MJ had better clutch stats, offensive output of not only himself, but producing for the team, and defensively it was better some years and other years they were either equal or Pippen was better (especially in 96). Either way, MJ was elite on the d. But what separates mainly was the offense.

But Pippen was really great on his own right. Pippen was a perfect compliment to MJ. While MJ was the man, the way Pippen played was a significant reason why they were so successful. But this isn't a Curry/KD type of thing.

[3ba11]

I don't know about equal.


But again, I ain't saying Pippen ain't great. Pippen was amazing and probably the best second option of the 90s you can have.

Do you realize that Terry Porter averaged 26/6/8 on 52% three-point shooting (6 attempts) to carry the Blazers in the 92' WCF?

Every sidekick in the 90's was actually a 1b that led their team in many series - when did Pippen lead the Bulls alongside MJ?

Pippen is the only 90's sidekick that was carried in every series and also had the lowest peak capability of any sidekick (22/5)

In addition to having the lowest peak and being the only sidekick that was always carried, Pippen has the worst clutch resume (best choking resume) of any 90's sidekick

Btw, how can it be optimal for a sidekick to have a low peak capability that forces MJ to carry the scoring load?.. Carrying the scoring load isn't optimal and no one else had to do it in every series and playoff run.. it simply isn't optimal, so you guys are just lying about Pippen being a perfect sidekick... And don't talk about passing or defense because Pippen couldn't average more than 7 apg (Jordan did in many series), and never got DPOY (Jordan finished ahead of Pippen in DPOY votes nearly every year).. Jordan averaged more assists than Pippen for their Finals career, playoff career, and regular season career, so you guys just lie about Pippen.

[Gohan]

Do you realize that Terry Porter averaged 26/6/8 on 52% three-point shooting (6 attempts) to carry the Blazers in the 92' WCF?

Every sidekick in the 90's was actually a 1b that led their team in many series - when did Pippen lead the Bulls alongside MJ?

Pippen is the only 90's sidekick that was carried in every series and also had the lowest peak capability of any sidekick (22/5)

In addition to having the lowest peak and being the only sidekick that was always carried, Pippen has the worst clutch resume (best choking resume) of any 90's sidekick

Btw, how can it be optimal for a sidekick to have a low peak capability that forces MJ to carry the scoring load?.. Carrying the scoring load isn't optimal and no one else had to do it in every series and playoff run.. it simply isn't optimal, so you guys are just lying about Pippen being a perfect sidekick... And don't talk about passing or defense because Pippen couldn't average more than 7 apg (Jordan did in many series), and never got DPOY (Jordan finished ahead of Pippen in DPOY votes nearly every year).. Jordan averaged more assists than Pippen for their Finals career, playoff career, and regular season career, so you guys just lie about Pippen.

Noooooo dont do it to em 3ball… they only think pippen was so great cause bulls were winning

[Micku]

Do you realize that Terry Porter averaged 26/6/8 on 52% three-point shooting (6 attempts) to carry the Blazers in the 92' WCF?

Every sidekick in the 90's was actually a 1b that led their team in many series - when did Pippen lead the Bulls alongside MJ?

Pippen is the only 90's sidekick that was carried in every series and also had the lowest peak capability of any sidekick (22/5)

In addition to having the lowest peak and being the only sidekick that was always carried, Pippen has the worst clutch resume (best choking resume) of any 90's sidekick

Btw, how can it be optimal for a sidekick to have a low peak capability that forces MJ to carry the scoring load?.. Carrying the scoring load isn't optimal and no one else had to do it in every series and playoff run.. it simply isn't optimal, so you guys are just lying about Pippen being a perfect sidekick... And don't talk about passing or defense because Pippen couldn't average more than 7 apg (Jordan did in many series), and never got DPOY (Jordan finished ahead of Pippen in DPOY votes nearly every year).. Jordan averaged more assists than Pippen for their Finals career, playoff career, and regular season career, so you guys just lie about Pippen.

We can go over how many times Pippen outscored the opposing team second option. In 93, I think he outscored opposing team second option consistently. Even in 92, he outscored and outplayed everybody on the Blazers, except for Drexler in 92 finals.

Pippen was consistently one of the best of his position in the 90s. And it was proven that he could hold the fort down without their main star. He was probably the best in his position for a stretch. In 94-96. And he was awarded with first all-nba team. But he was on the all-nba team for 5 out of the six championships. John Stockton was also similar.

I do agree and mention it depends on the year. It's definitely a year by year basis. You could argue Penny or whatever. Some other players too. But Pippen was usually up there.

Pippen is the only 90's sidekick that was carried in every series and also had the lowest peak capability of any sidekick (22/5)

What did Ewing had? Hakeem before Drexler? Barkely? David Robinson? I would think most of the top players didn't have the quality of player like Pippen in their championship contender run except for Hakeem in 95. They had solid and balance teams.

Even the Lakers in 97 and 98, which I think had more talent than any team in the 90s, including the Bulls, didn't have a single player that was better than Pippen in his prime (aside from Shaq of course). Kobe wasn't there yet.

Which sidekick would you rather have that the Bulls opposing team had that they faced in the 90s? The only big one I could think of is Penny out of the top of my head. But you could argue specific years. Like Joe Dumars and James Worthy. Those early 90s Cavs team?

[Hey Yo]

They finished tied for 7th place in DPOY voting in 91, tied for 3rd in 92 & Scottie Pippen finished ahead of him in 96 & 97.

3chins got his ass handed to him.

[ShawkFactory]

Do you realize that Terry Porter averaged 26/6/8 on 52% three-point shooting (6 attempts) to carry the Blazers in the 92' WCF?

Every sidekick in the 90's was actually a 1b that led their team in many series - when did Pippen lead the Bulls alongside MJ?

Pippen is the only 90's sidekick that was carried in every series and also had the lowest peak capability of any sidekick (22/5)

In addition to having the lowest peak and being the only sidekick that was always carried, Pippen has the worst clutch resume (best choking resume) of any 90's sidekick

Btw, how can it be optimal for a sidekick to have a low peak capability that forces MJ to carry the scoring load?.. Carrying the scoring load isn't optimal and no one else had to do it in every series and playoff run.. it simply isn't optimal, so you guys are just lying about Pippen being a perfect sidekick... And don't talk about passing or defense because Pippen couldn't average more than 7 apg (Jordan did in many series), and never got DPOY (Jordan finished ahead of Pippen in DPOY votes nearly every year).. Jordan averaged more assists than Pippen for their Finals career, playoff career, and regular season career, so you guys just lie about Pippen.

Pretty difficult for Pippen to do when his teams ‘A’ is the GOAT. It’s intuitively more difficult for a sidekick to be a 1b when the A is better than every other sidekicks’.