Another commentator saying Pippen was on Jordan's level in 96.

[MadDog]

If Jordan was 2nd to Pippen on defense, why was Jordan DPOY and got more DPOY votes every year except 96 & 97'?

Why was MJ the primary defender on Magic, Drexler, Payton, Miller and Isiah, while Pippen was almost never the primary defender on the opponent's best player?

Pippen was 9th for DPOY in 98' and Jordan was 4th, while Pippen got no votes in 93' and Jordan was 2nd..

And why do you keep saying Pippen averaged more assists when Jordan averaged more for their Finals career, playoff career, and regular season career?.. why keep lying?.. Pippen couldn't average over 7 apg (Jordan did many series) and Pippen was never DPOY, so Jordan was a better defender, passer and doubled Pippen's scoring (the only player that carried the scoring load in every series)

You're not hearing me. Pippen was better on defense certain years and vice versa. We're talking about 96, though, so if you wanna call Jordan better on that end, have at it. I never said Pippen averaged "more assists" either. What I said was Jordan's playmaking was comparable, and that he was MUCH better offensively.

Don't cut my posts and make up shit.

[3ba11]

.
Every notable sidekick in the 90's had higher peak than Pippen with various series where they dominated and led their team (1b):

* Penny demolished Pippen head-to-head in the 96' ECF and was considered a modern version of the robotic Pippen

* Payton has more all-defense and all-nba than Pippen, while being a co-leader with Kemp and being a regular 20/10 player (pippen never averaged 20/10 ever) - Payton was a better scorer, passer and defender than Pippen.

* Kemp was a superior, prodigious talent that barely scratched the surface of his potential but still dominated many series more than Pippen ever did including the 96' Finals or the 96' WCF (20/10 on 69% field goal percentage against Malone).

* Stockton had more All-NBA and is 8th all-time in BPM, while frequently being the team leader over Malone - heck, if Pippen's mid-tier playmaking helped MJ (5 apg), what would Stockton's goat playmaking do?

* Terry Porter averaged 26/6/8 on 52% three-point shooting (6 attempts) in the 92' WCF to carry the Blazers to the Finals

* KJ dominated Magic's top-seeded Lakers in 1990 and was 1st option over Barkley in 2 series against Hakeem in the 94' and 95' Playoffs (28/5/9 for KJ)

* Grant Hill was obviously better and ragdolled Pippen so badly in head-to-head matchups that MJ would have to take over defending him as the game wore on - this is well-documented on Youtube

* Reggie Lewis averaged 28 ppg on a 10-game playoff run in 92' as the 1st option, which demolishes Pippen's 10-game run in 94' across the board (ppg, apg, efficiency, PER, BPM, VORP, WS/48)... stats here

* Reggie Miller drastically outplayed Pippen against the exact same playoff opponent 6 times (stats here)

So Pippen has the lowest peak of any notable sidekick (22/5) and he's the only sidekick that never dominated or led the team (never a 1b).

He's also the only guy that failed to reach Horry-caliber in the Finals over a meaningful sample - Pippen is 0/6 in matching Horry's gamescore from the 95' Finals, so Jordan won 6 titles with a guy that played worse than Horry's overall stats from the 95' Finals (18/10/3/3/2).. Pippen averaged 19.0 on 42% in 6 Finals, including 2 Finals of 15.7 on 40%.

Again, it's a low bar (pippen-caliber)

[3ba11]

We can go over how many times Pippen outscored the opposing team second option.

Outside of 94', Pippen was outscored by the opposing 2nd leading scorer in 19 of 41 series and had worst-ever westbrick efficiency, so he was outplayed for the vast majority of series in his career.. This frequency (51%) barely qualifies him as a 2nd option in his career - he was actually outscored in 7 of 7 series without MJ from 99-03', so he was only a 2nd option alongside the goat scorer to attract all the attention and leave him "unguarded" (the title of pip's book).

But let's not look at the years where Pippen's poor play tricked off the title (88-90', 95', 99-03', aka the vast majority of his career) - let's just look at the title runs:

During title runs, Pippen outscored the opposing 2nd-leading scorer at the same frequency of lower-tier sidekicks like Klay, Pau, or Rip Hamilton (65-75% of series), and nowhere near the top tier of winning sidekicks like Curry, Kobe, AD or Wade that routinely outplay #1 options... So Pippen is in the lower tier of winning sidekicks, but his low peak capability and worst-ever efficiency makes him the worst of the group - his low peak of 15-22 ppg meant that he never dominated and basically tied his matchups, while his worst-ever efficiency meant that he was infact getting outplayed in most series.

We can go over how many good title runs Pippen had

Pippen had the lowest advanced stats ever for a winning sidekick in the 93' Playoffs (PER, BPM, WS/48, VORP, TS), and averaged 17 on 41% for the entire 96-98' Playoffs, so he was horrible for 4 of 6 title runs (45% true shooting in the 93' Finals).

Furthermore, his true shooting was below league average for every year of his playoff career except 89-91' and 02' (when he was mostly a role player) - so any notion that he could handle more volume is proven false by his worst-ever westbrick efficiency.

(One more thing - Bosh outplayed the league MVP in the 11' ECF just like Kyrie did in the 16' Finals and AD dominated Jokic in 20' WCF, while Wade outplayed fmvp Dirk in the 11' Finals - outplaying the league MVP or FMVP is the most help possible and only Lebron had it with all his sidekicks).

And it was proven that Pippen could hold the fort down without their main star.

In less than 18 months, Pippen destroyed a 3-peat dynasty to 2nd Round and then borderline lottery in 95' before MJ returned to restore 3-peat caliber.. After the surprise factor was over and the no-pressure or honeymoon period ended in the 94' playoffs, the REAL bulls without MJ were borderline lottery in 95'.

Ultimately, Pippen's playoff run as 1st option was historically disgraceful with so many chokes that it's hard to fathom... Every disaster that one would imagine without MJ actually happened in those playoffs... lol.. Pippen was a legendary embarrassment and confirmed everything that everyone already thought about him (soft, low-producer, not dominant, mentally weak, choker, can't take over games).

In 94-96. And he was awarded with first all-nba team. But he was on the all-nba team for 5 out of the six championships. John Stockton was also similar.

Stockton averaged 21/11 in the 97' WCF and made the historic series-winner in Barkley's face - this was superior performance to Malone's 23/11, and Stockton had many series where he led the Jazz like this.

So Stockton earned his All-NBA honors with actual PERFORMANCE, whereas Pippen was simply given All-NBA based on ring count and inflated by the winning spotlight.

Unlike every other notable sidekick from the 90's, Pippen had a low peak performance (22/5) and never led his team (carried in every series), while also having the worst clutch resume of all-time.

Ihe Lakers in 97 and 98, which I think had more talent than any team in the 90s, including the Bulls.. 98' Lakers didn't have a single player that was better than Pippen in his prime (aside from Shaq of course). Kobe wasn't there yet.

99' Kobe demolished Pippen in the 1st Round and was already far superior to any version of Pippen.

98' Kobe was also superior but he didn't get enough playing time.. Maybe Pippen was better than 97' Kobe for about 2 weeks to start the season.

And Eddie Jones didn't have the winning spotlight to get the accolades that Pippen got, but he was basically the same player as Pippen except superior offensively (he could really shoot the ball).. Again, pippen-caliber is a low bar - most guys were on his level.

Which sidekick would you rather have that the Bulls opposing team had that they faced in the 90s?

Why wouldn't Jordan win with a guy that could average 26/6/8 on 52% three-point shooting (6 attempts) like Terry Porter in the 92' WCF - that's better than Pippen ever played, so why wouldn't Jordan win with that?

So the point is that guys of Terry Porter or Rik Smits' caliber who can stay healthy would win every year with Jordan in the 90's where expansion had spread the talent around evenly (2-star vs 2-star format)... Obviously, they wouldn't be enough to win in the super-team 80's (top heavy league) - Jordan might need a 3rd star or 1b teammate to win in the 80's.

Btw, Ewing had 1 or more teammates outplay Pippen in the 89' ECSF, 92' ECSF, and 96' ECSF - all losses... So I'd take Ewing's overall cast over Jordan's.

And if Pippen's mid-tier playmaking helped MJ (5 apg), then what would Stockton goat playmaking do?.. No one in history gets more credit for 5 apg than Pippen but he was just a mid-tier playmaker.. He was actually a garbage playmaker when compared to elite playmakers (which includes Jordan) because Pippen couldn't average more than 7 apg, while MJ could average whatever he wanted and he DID.. Pippen didn't have a handle that could break down defenders or average 30/9/11 at point guard, while Jordan did.

What sidekick did Ewing have? Hakeem before Drexler? Barkely? David Robinson?

^^^ Again, those guys had sidekicks with higher peaks that actually dominated and led the team in various series (1b), while Pippen was never a 1b or team leader and had lower peak - see previous post for specific proof of these assertions.

[AussieSteve]

There's nothing to squirm out of - you guys are the ones squirming by even posting this

Of course there will be a handful of times over the course of a decade and 6 titles that someone said "Pippen is just as good as Jordan!!"

Pointing that out means nothing and represents the "squirming" that you apparently feel when discussing the massive gap between MJ and Pippen.

But rather than going by 1 in a billion statements about MJ/Pippen, the historical record of performance gap tells the story - Pippen has the lowest peak capability in a playoff series outside the 1st Round of any sidekick in the 90's (22/5), and he's the only sidekick that never led their team (never a 1b), aka carried in every series.

Can you find any instances of any BBall commentators suggesting that any of LeBron's team mates were just as good as LeBron?

You may be able to with Wade. But he was a top 5 player in the league. So even if you found an instance of that, it would only serve as evidence that Pip was a top 5 player in the league in 96.

[3ba11]

Can you find any instances of any BBall commentators suggesting that any of LeBron's team mates were just as good as LeBron?

You may be able to with Wade. But he was a top 5 player in the league. So even if you found an instance of that, it would only serve as evidence that Pip was a top 5 player in the league in 96.

The media said Wade was on Lebron's level many times between 2009 and 2011, while they also said AD was the leader in 2020 many times throughout the season..

The difference is that Wade and AD actually led Lebron in the 2011 and 2020 Playoffs, while Pippen never did and was always CARRIED (far less than Jordan in every series).

It's night and day.. Pippen is inflated by the winning spotlight, while AD and Wade were the real deal..

Infact, Lebron is the only guy in history that had sidekicks outplay the league MVP (the most help possible) - Bosh outplayed Rose in 2011... Kyrie outplayed Curry... AD demolished Jokic... And Wade outplayed FMVP Dirk.. it's hard to articulate how far superior this is to Pippen.

[97 bulls]

Can you find any instances of any BBall commentators suggesting that any of LeBron's team mates were just as good as LeBron?

You may be able to with Wade. But he was a top 5 player in the league. So even if you found an instance of that, it would only serve as evidence that Pip was a top 5 player in the league in 96.

And that's the white argument. It has nothing to do with Pippen being as good as Jordan. It has everything to do with how Pippen was perceived AT THAT TIME. These guys want to argue (in my winey voice) "what about stats, what about stats?"

The consensus was that Scottie Pippen was at the least a top 5 player at that time. Again, it doesn't matter whether you agree or disagree, IT WAS THE CONSENSUS!!!!

[97 bulls]

But the 94 Bulls had Horace Grant and BJ Armstrong. Both were all-stars that year. The 94 team was deeper, and why many think they're the best version with MJ. In 98, though, Jordan carried on offense and was still very good on defense (1st team on that end).

You dont need "stats" telling you Jordan was their best offensive player (much better: shooter, finisher, scorer, in isos and triple threat; comparable playmaking as well). And a close second to Pippen on defense. What's more, the playoffs showed Jordan's impact had more weight. A lot more.

I'd take the team that had two hall of famers playing at a high level over the team that had 2 fringe Allstars lol.

I already addressed the stats argument. Pippen has said many times, he didn't care about stats. Jordan did.

[3ba11]

And that's the white argument. It has nothing to do with Pippen being as good as Jordan. It has everything to do with how Pippen was perceived AT THAT TIME. These guys want to argue (in my winey voice) "what about stats, what about stats?"

The consensus was that Scottie Pippen was at the least a top 5 player at that time. Again, it doesn't matter whether you agree or disagree, IT WAS THE CONSENSUS!!!!

The same number of people thought Pippen was top 5 in the 90's as people think Kyrie is top 5 now... So basically no one

Carry on finding exceptions to the rule or 1 in a billion statements and claiming it's "consensus"... I've never seen more desperate shit or a bigger fraud that people are defending

[97 bulls]

The same number of people thought Pippen was top 5 in the 90's as people think Kyrie is top 5 now... So basically no one

Carry on finding exceptions to the rule or 1 in a billion statements and claiming it's "consensus"... I've never seen more desperate shit or a bigger fraud that people are defending

Lol. How many people have Kyrie Irving as being in the top 5 today? You're argument centers around this notion that something can only be valid if EVERYBODY IN THE WORLD AGREES WITH IT. It's a strawman.

[MadDog]

I'd take the team that had two hall of famers playing at a high level over the team that had 2 fringe Allstars lol.

Rodman was nowhere near HOF level in 98. He was coming off the bench, and a shell of his 96 self. Grant & BJ were objectively better producers.

Pippen has said many times, he didn't care about stats. Jordan did.

Already educated you on the difference in impact. You don't need stats to tell you Jordan was a much better offensive player. And at worst, a close second to Pippen defensively

[MadDog]

The same number of people thought Pippen was top 5 in the 90's as people think Kyrie is top 5 now... So basically no one

Carry on finding exceptions to the rule or 1 in a billion statements and claiming it's "consensus"... I've never seen more desperate shit or a bigger fraud that people are defending

That guy isn't a Bulls fan. More like a "Pippen fan" lol

[97 bulls]

That guy isn't a Bulls fan. More like a "Pippen fan" lol

Bulls fan through and through. Just because I don't see Jordan the way you Jordan fans do don't mean I'm not a Bulls fan. I'm trying to prove they were much more than Jordan. But again, as I stated time after time and you choose to ignore, Jordan is the GOAT. I'm just not gonna sit here and let clowns that don't know nothing about Basketball past nerd stats shit on Pippen.

[MadDog]

Bulls fan through and through. Just because I don't see Jordan the way you Jordan fans do don't mean I'm not a Bulls fan. I'm trying to prove they were much more than Jordan. But again, as I stated time after time and you choose to ignore, Jordan is the GOAT. I'm just not gonna sit here and let clowns that don't know nothing about Basketball past nerd stats shit on Pippen.

I think the way 99% of basketball fans who've both played and watched do. Jordan's impact was superior to Pippen through: the eye test, stats and skills. No fanboy will convince people who live in reality different. I'm not arguing Jordan is GOAT either, so repeating that makes no sense.

[97 bulls]

Rodman was nowhere near HOF level in 98. He was coming off the bench, and a shell of his 96 self. Grant & BJ were objectively better producers.

GTFOH. Why? Because he wasn't scoring a bunch of points? Rodman was the league leader in Rebounds and shut down the 2nd best player in the league in Karl Malone in the NBA Finals. I've sent you the videos. You'd rather stay ignorant.

ready educated you on the difference in impact. You don't need stats to tell you Jordan was a much better offensive player. And at worst, a close second to Pippen defensively

Bro, I never said Jordan wasn't a better scorer. That's your argument. I'm talking about success, wins, results. You're the one that keeps trying to put this discussion into a vacuum.

[MadDog]

GTFOH. Why? Because he wasn't scoring a bunch of points? Rodman was the league leader in Rebounds and shut down the 2nd best player in the league in Karl Malone in the NBA Finals. I've sent you the videos. You'd rather stay ignorant.

When did I ever use points to describe Rodman? Don't strawman. Again, he was coming off the bench and checked out frequently that year. Jordan and Phil had to constantly motivate Rodman just so he could stay on track. His defense and rebounding fell off compared to 96.

Anyone who actually saw that team knows this is ALL fact.

Bro, I never said Jordan wasn't a better scorer. That's your argument. I'm talking about success, wins, results. You're the one that keeps trying to put this discussion into a vacuum.

I didn't just say scoring. You're trying to finesse and ignore what I mentioned earlier. Broken down, Jordan's overall game WHICH INCLUDES SCORING had more impact on the Bulls winning. Reality.