There has never been a more mind****ed ATG player than Kevin Durant

[DMAVS41]

You're highlighting these Westbrook performances when like I said, its not really the point. I never said the guy was trash and didn't have great performances. But his boneheaded decision-making and erratic style of play would always be their downfall if not for something else. He's a very unique "great" player in that regard in that it made him a net negative in situations more often then other great players. You can't get through 4 playoff series that way and win championships with dumb basketball. It lowered their ceiling much more then their talent would indicate.

We can agree to disagree on Westbrook. Like I said, I just don't think we need to resort to resumes when comparing players when careers basically overlap. Before Steph's MVP season, Durant was clearly on another level, arguably multiple levels above. I'll give Steph 2015 and 2016, but when they played together, maybe you always felt the way you mentioned, but the vast majority of people watched those playoff runs coming away with Durant clearly being the better player - its become revisionist history by some that Steph was always considered their best player. I'd give Steph this year as well.

Well, yea… I’ve always felt differently than most about Durant and I disagree with your assessment of Curry vs Durant. What the consensus opinion was means literally nothing to me.

Also, kind of hard to ignore results when the player you and others keep telling me is multiple levels above… can’t do anything noteworthy as the leader of a franchise with consistent all-nba help nearly every year of his prime.

At some point the results have to matter when these claims are being made… especially when the help is top tier most years. There really aren’t excuses when other players have won with less help…

[hold this L]

You're highlighting these Westbrook performances when like I said, its not really the point. I never said the guy was trash and didn't have great performances. But his boneheaded decision-making and erratic style of play would always be their downfall if not for something else. He's a very unique "great" player in that regard in that it made him a net negative in situations more often then other great players. You can't get through 4 playoff series that way and win championships with dumb basketball. It lowered their ceiling much more then their talent would indicate.

We can agree to disagree on Westbrook. Like I said, I just don't think we need to resort to resumes when comparing players when careers basically overlap. Before Steph's MVP season, Durant was clearly on another level, arguably multiple levels above. I'll give Steph 2015 and 2016, but when they played together, maybe you always felt the way you mentioned, but the vast majority of people watched those playoff runs coming away with Durant clearly being the better player - its become revisionist history by some that Steph was always considered their best player. I'd give Steph this year as well.

KD went 1-5 in game 6 vs the Warriors in 2016 and had 2 TOs in the 4th quarter. They both were at fault. Westbrook has been basically used as a loser scapegoat for KD's career since KD won his first ring after joining a winner like Curry. Reality is both he and KD are massive iso-centric players that constantly make mistakes.

Kevin Durant has been inferior to Curry every single season after 2014. Every. single. season.

He's the 2nd goat scorer and at times elite on ball D, but he has zero intangibles to winning. Curry probably has the goat intangibles to winning which is part of why he's so dominant despite being a small guy in a sport about height and physicality (and athleticism).

[guy]

Well, yeaÂ… IÂ’ve always felt differently than most about Durant and I disagree with your assessment of Curry vs Durant. What the consensus opinion was means literally nothing to me.

Also, kind of hard to ignore results when the player you and others keep telling me is multiple levels aboveÂ… canÂ’t do anything noteworthy as the leader of a franchise with consistent all-nba help nearly every year of his prime.

At some point the results have to matter when these claims are being madeÂ… especially when the help is top tier most years. There really arenÂ’t excuses when other players have won with less helpÂ…

I meant from 2010-2014 he was multiple levels above Steph, which he was. Not even sure how anyone can debate that. Since then I'd say they're about the same level. I'm not saying comparing them year-by-year should completely dictate who's better as not every year should weigh the same but like I said, there careers have basically overlapped and that was a significant portion of their careers.

He had the talent to win in OKC but not much better "help" then anyone who's ever won before. Your conflating talent with positive impact. In most cases, its fine to do that but given the type of player Westbrook is, its not as simple. Dumb basketball and my turn your turn basketball which that team was forced to play due to Westbrook rarely ever wins, the one exception being the 2016 Cavs and even they didn't play that style to this extent.

And you can blame KD for going to Brooklyn, but after that given the injuries/vaccine issues/etc. I don't really see how he can be blamed for not winning with them so far.

Don't get me wrong, he deserves alot of shit for some of the decisions he's made, bad games here and there, and just at times mental weakness. And that's why he's not ranked higher to me i.e. top 5, top 10, etc.

[guy]

KD went 1-5 in game 6 vs the Warriors in 2016 and had 2 TOs in the 4th quarter. They both were at fault. Westbrook has been basically used as a loser scapegoat for KD's career since KD won his first ring after joining a winner like Curry. Reality is both he and KD are massive iso-centric players that constantly make mistakes.

Kevin Durant has been inferior to Curry every single season after 2014. Every. single. season.

He's the 2nd goat scorer and at times elite on ball D, but he has zero intangibles to winning. Curry probably has the goat intangibles to winning which is part of why he's so dominant despite being a small guy in a sport about height and physicality (and athleticism).

If I thought KD didn't have his flaws and didn't have that many bad performances, I'd call him top 5. He's not. I could say the same thing about Steph in that sense.

KD proved in GS he wasn't anywhere near the same level of ISO-centric as Westbrook and in general he's never been anywhere close to as ball dominant as Westbrook. Westbrook has been on 3 different teams since OKC, and has played with PG, Harden, Lebron and AD and has never proven he could be play any differently. So its pretty clear who was driving that style of play.

[hold this L]

If I thought KD didn't have his flaws and didn't have that many bad performances, I'd call him top 5. He's not. I could say the same thing about Steph in that sense.

KD proved in GS he wasn't anywhere near the same level of ISO-centric as Westbrook and in general he's never been anywhere close to as ball dominant as Westbrook. Westbrook has been on 3 different teams since OKC, and has played with PG, Harden, Lebron and AD and has never proven he could be play any differently. So its pretty clear who was driving that style of play.

KD is exactly that guy lol, what have you been watching? The only season of his career where he wasn't a heavy iso-centric guy is the first GSW ring. After he got his first ring, he became increasingly more iso heavy in the 2nd year and even more in year 3. It never got completely out of control because the Warriors have the best leader in the game. What has happened since KD went to the Nets? It's the same iso-centric offense shit they ran at OKC. KD even had Kerr talking to him like a child in the middle of the playoffs to convince the 1 trick pony to start playing team ball, or the Rockets were ready to kick them out of the series.

You can tell any time that KD went out for more than 1 game where the GSW system immediately changed, far more off the ball movement and passing involved.

[warriorfan]

KD is exactly that guy lol, what have you been watching? The only season of his career where he wasn't a heavy iso-centric guy is the first GSW ring. After he got his first ring, he became increasingly more iso heavy in the 2nd year and even more in year 3. It never got completely out of control because the Warriors have the best leader in the game. What has happened since KD went to the Nets? It's the same iso-centric offense shit they ran at OKC. KD even had Kerr talking to him like a child in the middle of the playoffs to convince the 1 trick pony to start playing team ball, or the Rockets were ready to kick them out of the series.

You can tell any time that KD went out for more than 1 game where the GSW system immediately changed, far more off the ball movement and passing involved.

This. People saying KD played/plays how he does because of Russ? Lol. That’s a good one.

[DMAVS41]

I meant from 2010-2014 he was multiple levels above Steph, which he was. Not even sure how anyone can debate that. Since then I'd say they're about the same level. I'm not saying comparing them year-by-year should completely dictate who's better as not every year should weigh the same but like I said, there careers have basically overlapped and that was a significant portion of their careers.

He had the talent to win in OKC but not much better "help" then anyone who's ever won before. Your conflating talent with positive impact. In most cases, its fine to do that but given the type of player Westbrook is, its not as simple. Dumb basketball and my turn your turn basketball which that team was forced to play due to Westbrook rarely ever wins, the one exception being the 2016 Cavs and even they didn't play that style to this extent.

And you can blame KD for going to Brooklyn, but after that given the injuries/vaccine issues/etc. I don't really see how he can be blamed for not winning with them so far.

Don't get me wrong, he deserves alot of shit for some of the decisions he's made, bad games here and there, and just at times mental weakness. And that's why he's not ranked higher to me i.e. top 5, top 10, etc.

I'm not conflating anything...he had multiple chances to win and he didn't play his best. In fact, in two of the biggest series of his career in which he lost...that other player was about as good as he was.

Is it a high standard? Yes...and it should be when Zach Lowe is calling him a top 10 player of all-time and all he's done outside of the Warriors is what Allen Iverson was able to accomplish...and Iverson did it with less help and in a tougher defensive era.

And, no, I'm not saying Durant is Iverson...he's clearly better imo...I'm just saying a player should actually have to produce special shit to get vaulted up rankings like Durant seemingly is...all because he joined one of the best teams ever that was dynasty level without him...and win with no pressure at all.

Blamed is the wrong word...guys as good as Durant are almost never the reason a team loses because their level, even not at their best, is way better than almost every other player.

This isn't about determining if KD is great...it is about determining how great...we all know he's great. He's easily one of the 25 or so best players ever. But I have my opinion on him...always thought he was a tad over-rated in terms of impact and certainly isn't the leader I'd want...and the evidence over time has made me feel more strongly...as it should.

His career isn't over yet...but I need to see him overcome shit and win if I'm going to put him in the elite of the elite all-time. Curry has earned that...Durant hasn't. Simple as that.

[DMAVS41]

This. People saying KD played/plays how he does because of Russ? Lol. That’s a good one.

Bingo.

Russ was far from perfect, but all the blame he gets is so absurd. He was great back then.

[guy]

KD is exactly that guy lol, what have you been watching? The only season of his career where he wasn't a heavy iso-centric guy is the first GSW ring. After he got his first ring, he became increasingly more iso heavy in the 2nd year and even more in year 3. It never got completely out of control because the Warriors have the best leader in the game. What has happened since KD went to the Nets? It's the same iso-centric offense shit they ran at OKC. KD even had Kerr talking to him like a child in the middle of the playoffs to convince the 1 trick pony to start playing team ball, or the Rockets were ready to kick them out of the series.

You can tell any time that KD went out for more than 1 game where the GSW system immediately changed, far more off the ball movement and passing involved.

No he's not. Westbrook is literally arguably the most ball-dominant player of all-time. KD is far from that. Is he more ISO-centric then Steph? Sure. So is Jordan and Kobe.
That doesn't mean they're on the level of Russ. Arguably no one is.

[guy]

I'm not conflating anything...he had multiple chances to win and he didn't play his best. In fact, in two of the biggest series of his career in which he lost...that other player was about as good as he was.

Is it a high standard? Yes...and it should be when Zach Lowe is calling him a top 10 player of all-time and all he's done outside of the Warriors is what Allen Iverson was able to accomplish...and Iverson did it with less help and in a tougher defensive era.

And, no, I'm not saying Durant is Iverson...he's clearly better imo...I'm just saying a player should actually have to produce special shit to get vaulted up rankings like Durant seemingly is...all because he joined one of the best teams ever that was dynasty level without him...and win with no pressure at all.

Blamed is the wrong word...guys as good as Durant are almost never the reason a team loses because their level, even not at their best, is way better than almost every other player.

This isn't about determining if KD is great...it is about determining how great...we all know he's great. He's easily one of the 25 or so best players ever. But I have my opinion on him...always thought he was a tad over-rated in terms of impact and certainly isn't the leader I'd want...and the evidence over time has made me feel more strongly...as it should.

His career isn't over yet...but I need to see him overcome shit and win if I'm going to put him in the elite of the elite all-time. Curry has earned that...Durant hasn't. Simple as that.

KD has had his fair share of bad performances. And in OKC. And ultimately maybe him not having those performances would've won them 1 or 2 series that they eventually lost. Sure. But my point again for the 3rd or 4th time now is that they were never going to win a title based on the way they play, which was primarily driven by Russ. They were never that close to actually winning a championship to say they would've if it weren't for some bad KD performance. The style of play was way too erratic, disorganized and ISO-centric. They were going to screw up in 1 out of 4 playoff series eventually. KD has shown he can play in other situations that were much more focused on ball movement. Russ hasn't, and he's even played on more teams and different coaches.

Call it whatever you want, I don't really see how he should've been expected to win in BK at this point given the dysfunction and inconsistency. He deserves blame for going there and putting himself in that position, but that aside no one has really been expected to win in that type of situation .

[DMAVS41]

KD has had his fair share of bad performances. And in OKC. And ultimately maybe him not having those performances would've won them 1 or 2 series that they eventually lost. Sure. But my point again for the 3rd or 4th time now is that they were never going to win a title based on the way they play, which was primarily driven by Russ. They were never that close to actually winning a championship to say they would've if it weren't for some bad KD performance. The style of play was way too erratic, disorganized and ISO-centric. They were going to screw up in 1 out of 4 playoff series eventually. KD has shown he can play in other situations that were much more focused on ball movement. Russ hasn't, and he's even played on more teams and different coaches.

Call it whatever you want, I don't really see how he should've been expected to win in BK at this point given the dysfunction and inconsistency. He deserves blame for going there and putting himself in that position, but that aside no one has really been expected to win in that type of situation .

Yea, I know your point. I disagree...hard to make it more clear than that. They definitely could have won playing that style...they just had to play better in some key moments / series...and hard to do that with a leader like KD imo...

Maybe he's improved on that front...but demanding a trade and running from this current situation isn't a good look...especially when that team could actually be really good.

[hold this L]

No he's not. Westbrook is literally arguably the most ball-dominant player of all-time. KD is far from that. Is he more ISO-centric then Steph? Sure. So is Jordan and Kobe.
That doesn't mean they're on the level of Russ. Arguably no one is.

He did the same thing this season. After Kyrie's 1st game, KD was bringing the ball up every game and plays very heavily focused iso ball freezing out Kyrie who played horrendous in the next 3 games. Are we going to blame Russ this season as well?

[warriorfan]

KD has had his fair share of bad performances. And in OKC. And ultimately maybe him not having those performances would've won them 1 or 2 series that they eventually lost. Sure. But my point again for the 3rd or 4th time now is that they were never going to win a title based on the way they play, which was primarily driven by Russ. They were never that close to actually winning a championship to say they would've if it weren't for some bad KD performance. The style of play was way too erratic, disorganized and ISO-centric. They were going to screw up in 1 out of 4 playoff series eventually. KD has shown he can play in other situations that were much more focused on ball movement. Russ hasn't, and he's even played on more teams and different coaches.

Call it whatever you want, I don't really see how he should've been expected to win in BK at this point given the dysfunction and inconsistency. He deserves blame for going there and putting himself in that position, but that aside no one has really been expected to win in that type of situation .

KD gets points for being able to play with Steph Curry? Who has proven to elevate his teammates more then pretty much anyone in history? What about when he tried to hijack the system in Golden State multiple times. One of them almost making them lose to the rockets?



What do you think that exchange was all about? Was that Russ’ fault too?

[guy]

Yea, I know your point. I disagree...hard to make it more clear than that. They definitely could have won playing that style...they just had to play better in some key moments / series...and hard to do that with a leader like KD imo...

When basically no other team ever has? Okay.

[guy]

He did the same thing this season. After Kyrie's 1st game, KD was bringing the ball up every game and plays very heavily focused iso ball freezing out Kyrie who played horrendous in the next 3 games. Are we going to blame Russ this season as well?

There's a medium, which I've clearly acknowledged. I'm not saying he's as good as Curry on that front, but he's clearly not on Russ's level either.