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  1. #136
    truth serum sdot_thadon's Avatar
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    Default Re: Thinking Basketball tracked every Michael Jordan playoff game for a decade...

    Quote Originally Posted by HoopsNY View Post
    Pippen literally outscored every sidekick in the finals for a stretch of 20 years with the exception of Kobe and this guy still goes on a rant as if people don't know this. It's unbelievable...actually, it's impressive. Lol. It's like you're so blinded by your love of an athlete that you can't reason that basketball is a 5 on 5 with 7 bench players and a coaching staff. And all of those elements combined with a lot of luck is required to maintain a winning brand.

    I believe MJ is the GOAT for sure, but to deny that Chicago was stacked or that Pippen was a great player is revisionist history. Chicago - on a consistent year to year basis - was the most stacked team in the 90s. You can make the argument that other teams' 2-12 were better on an individual year, but they were few and far apart (such as Phoenix in '93).

    Otherwise, Pippen and Grant had the Bulls on a 60 win pace in '94. That's not a minor deal. It's major. And Again in '95, without Grant, and without Jordan, Pippen had that team on a 44 win pace with the 2nd best defense in the league. That doesn't happen by accident. That happens with a great player at the helm.
    This. This. This. I think basketball culture is screwed over by the idea that 2 things can both be great, either next to each other, or in conjunction with one another. The Bulls being a great team doesn't diminish Mj in any way. If anything that great team was the vehicle to validate his greatness in the eyes of proof seeking critics.

  2. #137
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    Default Re: Thinking Basketball tracked every Michael Jordan playoff game for a decade...

    Quote Originally Posted by HoopsNY View Post
    Pippen literally outscored every sidekick in the finals for a stretch of 20 years with the exception of Kobe and this guy still goes on a rant as if people don't know this. It's unbelievable...actually, it's impressive. Lol. It's like you're so blinded by your love of an athlete that you can't reason that basketball is a 5 on 5 with 7 bench players and a coaching staff. And all of those elements combined with a lot of luck is required to maintain a winning brand.

    I believe MJ is the GOAT for sure, but to deny that Chicago was stacked or that Pippen was a great player is revisionist history. Chicago - on a consistent year to year basis - was the most stacked team in the 90s. You can make the argument that other teams' 2-12 were better on an individual year, but they were few and far apart (such as Phoenix in '93).

    Otherwise, Pippen and Grant had the Bulls on a 60 win pace in '94. That's not a minor deal. It's major. And Again in '95, without Grant, and without Jordan, Pippen had that team on a 44 win pace with the 2nd best defense in the league. That doesn't happen by accident. That happens with a great player at the helm.
    /thread.

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    Default Re: Thinking Basketball tracked every Michael Jordan playoff game for a decade...

    Quote Originally Posted by HoopsNY View Post

    Massive deflections and cherrypicking here.


    You were wrong about the Bulls' winning primarily from defense - you were confronted with the facts that the Bulls had goat OFFENSES much more than defenses..

    But instead of acknowledging the point and/or conceding, your first sentence is to accuse ME of avoiding and deflecting - so the historical record shows that you're projecting.. It's right there in the recent post history.



    Quote Originally Posted by HoopsNY View Post

    For one, you isolate Parker from the list I gave


    I'm literally doing the opposite - I'm saying that every sidekick dominated like Parker did, except Pippen.

    Every sidekick was expected to completely dominate, or carry teams to the Finals, or win FMVP, or lead their team in scoring....Yet you're praising Pippen for barely outscoring opposing sidekicks with worst-ever efficiency, smh.

    Pippen couldn't dominate, so he was just an Iggy or Wiggins-caliber player that was lucky to be along for the ride



    Quote Originally Posted by HoopsNY View Post

    The common theme for the years mentioned is that Pippen was scoring on par or scoring more points than other championship sidekicks/number 2s.


    ^^^ All above-average sidekicks do that

    The best sidekicks do much more like dominate MVP's, carry their team to the Finals, win FMVP, or lead the team in scoring - Pippen did none of this

    Furthermore, other sidekicks don't have worst-ever efficiency or a low peak capability that doesn't require game-planning (can't dominate - system player)



    Quote Originally Posted by HoopsNY View Post

    For one, you isolate Parker from the list I gave


    Duncan led the 2007 Spurs in scoring for the regular season and Playoffs, so Parker's FMVP is an example of sidekicks dominating (while Pippen never did).

    Sidekicks like Dumars, Parker and Iggy won FMVP... Other sidekicks dominated MVP's like when AD dominated Joker... or Kyrie ragdolled Curry and Wade outplayed FMVP Dirk.

    Other guys like KJ dominated a couple 7-game wars with Hakeem in 94' and 95' - he averaged 28/5/9 in both series...

    MJ would obviously defeat Hakeem with this kind of help...

    So only MJ lacked a go-to teammate, as Kenny Smith explains here..



    Quote Originally Posted by HoopsNY View Post

    You also keep reaching for what some of these guys did outside of the finals, as if that matters. No one cares what they did outside of those finals. What matters is what happens in the finals.


    No one cares that AD dominated Joker to carry the Lakers to the 2020 Finals?

    You think it's fair that Lebron gets all-time domination from AD in Year 1, while Jordan gets nothing from Pippen in 88', 89', 90' and infact NEVER gets that level of play from Pippen??

    And again - surely Jordan would defeat Hakeem in 94' and 95' with KJ's domination, while Barkley lost both series in 7 games.

    Jordan could've used this kind of help from 88-90' when he had a 0 percentile cast vs dynasty... However, sidekick domination would've been overkill, since Jordan won when Pippen reached Iggy or Wiggins-caliber.



    Quote Originally Posted by HoopsNY View Post

    MJ was not guarding all 5 positions.


    No but he was getting the most DPOY votes on his team every year and he was assigned to be primary defender on Magic, Clyde, Isiah and Payton.

    So he was the defensive leader while carrying a horrible offensive casts to goat offenses.

    So you have no point and are just talking in circles about debunked claims



    Quote Originally Posted by HoopsNY View Post

    And lastly, saying that Pippen wasn't able to be a 1b is silly.


    You need elite PPG capability to be a 1b and Pippen didn't have it

    He never achieved elite ppg, even as the #1 option

    And he had woat efficiency

    And he couldn't create his own shot or average more than 14 outside the dynasty chemistry that he grew up in (triangle) - he wasn't a go-to player and didn't require doubles or game-planning.. (<------ those are all-time greats corroborating my points about Pippen)

    Ultimately, Pippen played to capacity (near his career highs) alongside Jordan - Jordan squeezed Wiggins-caliber out of a towel boy



    Quote Originally Posted by HoopsNY View Post

    And why the hell are you complaining anyway? It resulted in 6 titles and 2 ECF trips when they played together. Everything else was an ECSF trip. How much better can you really get in the modern era?

    Anytime a series was close or lost, it was Pippen's poor play that caused it - look it up

    So Pippen caused losses in 88', 89', 90', 95', and nearly the 92' Semis or 98' ECF (7 game series)

    Pippen wet the bed in all these series and also the 96-98' Finals and many more.
    Last edited by 3ba11; 08-10-2022 at 03:33 PM.

  4. #139
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    Default Re: Thinking Basketball tracked every Michael Jordan playoff game for a decade...

    Quote Originally Posted by 3ba11 View Post
    You were wrong about the Bulls' winning primarily from defense - you were confronted with the facts that the Bulls had goat OFFENSES much more than defenses..
    Don't misquote me. I mentioned their casts not showing up, but their defense did. See the different in PPG, ORTG, and FG% of their opponents. Again, who was guarding the opposing players? Just MJ? Why were their opponents playing so poorly offensively on a consistent basis?

    I'm literally doing the opposite - I'm saying that every sidekick dominated like Parker did, except Pippen.

    Every sidekick was expected to completely dominate, or carry teams to the Finals, or win FMVP, or lead their team in scoring....Yet you're praising Pippen for barely outscoring opposing sidekicks with worst-ever efficiency, smh.

    Pippen couldn't dominate, so he was just an Iggy or Wiggins-caliber player that was lucky to be along for the ride
    No one is saying he could dominate. What I am saying is that Pippen outproduced almost every sidekick in every championship team for a spread of 20 years. You can choose to ignore that all you want, but it's the truth. Sorry, but guys like Billups, Maxwell, Parker, Gasol, and even Duncan weren't regularly putting up 25-30 PPG as sidekicks in the finals.

    The best sidekicks do much more like dominate MVP's, carry their team to the Finals, win FMVP, or lead the team in scoring - Pippen did none of this
    Irrelevant. Pippen outscored most sidekicks during the 90s and 10s. This is a fact. Pippen was a great player, one of the greatest of all time. Deal with it.

    Duncan led the 2007 Spurs in scoring for the regular season and Playoffs, so Parker's FMVP is an example of sidekicks dominating (while Pippen never did).
    '07 RS Duncan: 14.1 FGA
    '07 RS Parker: 14.2 FGA

    '07 PS Duncan: 16.7 FGA
    '07 PS Parker: 17.5 FGA

    '07 FS Duncan: 16.3 FGA
    '07 FS Parker: 18.5 FGA

    Parker literally attempted more field goals in every part of the 2007 season (regular season, playoffs, finals).

    Sidekicks like Dumars, Parker and Iggy won FMVP... Other sidekicks dominated MVP's like when AD dominated Joker... or Kyrie ragdolled Curry and Wade outplayed FMVP Dirk.
    And Pippen outplayed Hornacek, Porter, KJ, and Worthy. So why are you complaining?

    Other guys like KJ dominated a couple 7-game wars with Hakeem in 94' and 95' - he averaged 28/5/9 in both series...
    Yea, and Pippen out played him in the '93 finals despite his injury (though KJ was injured as well).

    You think it's fair that Lebron gets all-time domination from AD in Year 1, while Jordan gets nothing from Pippen in 88', 89', 90' and infact NEVER gets that level of play from Pippen??
    Pippen guarded Magic better than Jordan did in the '91 finals. Did you forget the '93 ECF? Chicago was down 0-2 and MJ shot 3-18 in game 3. It was Pippen who put up 29 points on 10-12 shooting (83%). You're really ungrateful. And you call yourself a Bulls fan? If Pippen doesn't play that well, Chicago goes down 0-3.

    No but he was getting the most DPOY votes on his team every year and he was assigned to be primary defender on Magic, Clyde, Isiah and Payton.
    Another deflection. I raised the point about MJ not guarding all 5 positions IN THE FINALS. Who was shutting down those Lakers, Utah, Sonics, Blazers, and Suns teams? Why did their numbers drop significantly in the finals as opposed to the regular season, more so than other teams that lost in the finals after them?

  5. #140
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    Default Re: Thinking Basketball tracked every Michael Jordan playoff game for a decade...

    Pippen Leads Bull Charge -- Forward Saves Jordan, Sends Knicks Home

    CHICAGO - While everyone was waiting to hear from Michael Jordan, they were watching Scottie Pippen lead the Chicago Bulls to a chance at a third straight NBA title.

    Pippen, picking up the slack from an exhausted Jordan, hit a three-pointer with 1:01 left last night that clinched the two-time defending champions' 96-88 victory over the New York Knicks and a berth in the NBA Finals.

    The Bulls had looked like yet another team to fall short of a threepeat when they lost the first two games of the best-of-7 Eastern Conference finals in New York.

    A victory on the road in Game 5 set the stage for the deciding Game 6 as the Bulls became the first team to reach the NBA Finals for three straight years since the 1989 Los Angeles Lakers. Only three teams have won three straight titles, the last the Boston Celtics who won the last of eight straight championships in 1966.

    Jordan released a statement through his agent just hours before the game calling claims of golf debts of over $1 million "preposterous."

    "I think everyone realized he was under tremendous strain tonight and others stepped up and helped out," Bull Coach Phil Jackson said.

    No one stepped up more than Pippen, the Bulls' other star who has often been maligned.

    "Pippen had a great series, and justly so, because he had been labeled somewhat of a pussyfooter out there," Jackson said.

    Pippen finished with 24 points, 16 in the second half, and the biggest his 3-pointer with 61 seconds left on the game clock and one on the shot clock.

    "I happened to look up and see the clock at 4 seconds and I got the shot up and it fell for me. It was a big shot," Pippen said of the shot that gave the Bulls a 90-82 lead.

    Jordan, held to four free throws in the final quarter, scored 25 points, 17 in the first half.

    Jackson said he wasn't concerned about Jordan looking tired.

    "It will pass," he said.

    Patrick Ewing led the Knicks with 26 points, while John Starks, Anthony Mason and Charles Smith had 14 each.

    The Bulls will face the winner of today's Western Conference finals Game 7 between Seattle and Phoenix for the title. The finals start Wednesday night in Phoenix if the Suns win today and in Chicago if the SuperSonics win.

    "We'd like Seattle to win so we can maintain homecourt," Pippen said.

    It turned out to be a lost season for the Knicks, who had directed all their efforts to dethroning the Bulls only to lose their homecourt advantage when Chicago won 97-94 in New York in Wednesday night's Game 5.

    "I think the rivalry was born last year and sustained this year," Jackson said of the team's second straight intense playoff series. "We'll have to see what level it gets to next year." The Bulls have beaten New York three straight years in the playoffs and four of the last five.

    The Bulls became the fifth team to ever come back from an 0-2 deficit in the NBA playoffs.

    "The players believed in themselves and were capable of pulling it out," Jackson said. "That game Wednesday night was a terrific battle for us and a great one."

    It was the first time in Pat Riley's two seasons as coach that the Knicks lost four straight games.

    "They kept scratching and scratching and scratching. I'm glad the Knicks are going home - the whole crew," Bull guard B.J. Armstrong said.

    The Knicks' last lead was at 10-7 after two early baskets by John Starks. Chicago went on an 11-0 run after that, with Pippen scoring two baskets.
    https://archive.seattletimes.com/arc...5&slug=1704979


  6. #141
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    Default Re: Thinking Basketball tracked every Michael Jordan playoff game for a decade...

    But in the New York series, Pippen was the most productive player. For those six games, the Chicago Bulls belonged to Scottie Pippen as much as to Michael Jordan. Pippen averaged 22.5 points, 6.7 rebounds and 4 assists against the Knicks, including two massive performances: 29 points in Game 3 and a 28-point, 11-rebound effort in Game 5, which Pippen ended with two straight game-saving blocks of 6-11 Charles Smith in the waning seconds.

    "I hope you all get off his back now," Knicks guard Doc Rivers said. "To beat us, you have to be tough, and he beat us."

    In the first three games of the Finals, Pippen has averaged 22.7 points, 10.3 rebounds and 8.7 assists. He suffered from leg cramps in the triple-overtime loss to Phoenix Sunday, but nobody brought up the headache, because he was still out there, trying. In fact, if the Bulls go on to win this third straight championship, could you not make a most valuable player case for a man that's nearly averaging a triple-double?

    "This team is capable of winning without me," Pippen said. "I just think I give them more options and more dimensions. {The MVP award is} nothing that I want to focus on. I want to win this series. That's it; that's the bottom line. When it's all said and done, we'll all be happy if that happens."
    https://www.washingtonpost.com/archi...-20a9e95c5370/



    Both articles posted are from 1993. Both mention Pippen AND Jordan having equal contributions AND Pippen "saving" Jordan. Perish in your rage 3ball.

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    Default Re: Thinking Basketball tracked every Michael Jordan playoff game for a decade...

    Quote Originally Posted by HoopsNY View Post
    https://www.washingtonpost.com/archi...-20a9e95c5370/



    Both articles posted are from 1993. Both mention Pippen AND Jordan having equal contributions AND Pippen "saving" Jordan. Perish in your rage 3ball.

    93' Finals

    Jordan..... 41 on 56 TS.. 2 TO.. 29.6 gamescore
    Pippen..... 21 on 46 TS.. 4 TO.. 15.6 gamescore

    Majerle.... 17 on 59 TS.. 1 TO.. 17.0 gamescore


    I don't read bullshit media ignorance - I look at facts

    Pippen was horrible in the 93' Finals and out-produced by Majerle (and also Dumas in the closeout Game 5)..

    That's why the Bulls almost lost - both the Suns & Bulls averaged exactly 106.7 ppg and 113.0 ortg for the series, so every ounce of Jordan's 41/9/6 was needed, while Pippen wet the bed with Westbrick efficiency and turnovers..

    A healthy KJ is obviously better as well - KJ killed Hakeem in 94/95 and upset Magic in 90'... Pippen is nowhere near this.

    Pippen got no DPOY votes in 93', while Jordan was #2, so he was the defensive leader.

    So Pippen was aids in the 93' and 96-98' Finals... Infact, he averaged 17.6 on 41% for the entire 3-peat playoffs, so Jordan three-peated with a poor man's Pandemic P

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    Default Re: Thinking Basketball tracked every Michael Jordan playoff game for a decade...

    Quote Originally Posted by HoopsNY View Post

    '07 RS Duncan: 14.1 FGA
    '07 RS Parker: 14.2 FGA

    '07 PS Duncan: 16.7 FGA
    '07 PS Parker: 17.5 FGA

    '07 FS Duncan: 16.3 FGA
    '07 FS Parker: 18.5 FGA

    Parker literally attempted more field goals in every part of the 2007 season (regular season, playoffs, finals).


    Not only did Duncan lead the 2007 Spurs in scoring for regular season and playoffs, but if we're comparing Duncan and Jordan as all-time greats, then Parker is Duncan's help - Parker's dominance reduces Duncan's ring quality compared to Jordan..

    So your point about Parker being the 1st option makes the point that the teammates of Lebron or Duncan frequently outscored them.

    So again, Pippen is the only sidekick that was never a #1 option in any series and never achieved elite stats, while every other sidekick did (1b).



    Quote Originally Posted by HoopsNY View Post

    No one is saying Pippen could dominate.


    But dominating matters

    Sidekick domination is a primary criteria when comparing the ring quality of Duncan, Jordan, Lebron, etc

    Only Jordan lacked a sidekick that could achieve elite stats/dominate, or carry a team to the Finals, or win FMVP, or lead the team in scoring..

    Everyone else had sidekicks that could play at these objectively superior levels, while Jordan had to win with an Iggy or Wiggins-caliber sidekick (secondary producer).



    Quote Originally Posted by HoopsNY View Post

    What I am saying is that Pippen outproduced almost every sidekick in every championship team for a spread of 20 years.


    Again, your numbers were false by saying Parker is #1 option when his scoring lead and FMVP simply represents Duncan's superior help (than Jordan had with Pippen)



    Quote Originally Posted by HoopsNY View Post

    What I am saying is that Pippen outproduced almost every sidekick in every championship team for a spread of 20 years.


    Many sidekicks in 3-pointer history were FMVP or outscored Pippen in the Finals (aka objectively superior):

    80' Magic
    81' Maxwell
    83' Dr. J
    85' Worthy
    86' McHale
    87' Worthy
    88' Worthy
    89' Dumars
    95' Drexler
    95' Penny
    96' Payton
    01' Kobe
    02' Kobe
    07' Parker
    11' Wade
    12' Wade
    12' Westbrook
    15' Iggy
    16' Kyrie
    17' Kyrie
    17' Curry
    18' Curry
    20' AD
    21' Middleton
    04' Rip Hamilton (outscored 5 of 6 Pippen Finals)
    08' Allen (4 of 6).


    Pippen played far below all these guys - Pippen was more like Klay in 16' or Manu in 05' or Wiggins in 22' - that's Pippen's caliber (19 on 42% in 6 Finals)



    Quote Originally Posted by HoopsNY View Post

    Pippen outscored most sidekicks during the 90s and 10s. This is a fact.


    Nope.. Not even close - see previous response above.

    Your calculator must be broken.

    In addition to being on the low end of sidekick scorers, Pippen's weak scoring came with Westbrick efficiency, low peak capability (no game-planning required) and absolute WOAT clutch - Pippen would go entire series without scoring in the clutch (last 5 within 5), while Stockton would be Jordan in the clutch

    Let me know if you need to see the actual stats for Pippen in the clutch lol



    Quote Originally Posted by HoopsNY View Post

    Pippen was a great player, one of the greatest of all time. Deal with it.


    The historical record shows that he played at an Iggy or Wiggins caliber but you're inflating him due to ring count (winning spotlight).. But every statistic says that he's about 120-150th (PER, WS/48, etc)..

    Using sheer stats to rank sidekicks is fine because they don't affect brand of ball like the 1st option.



    Quote Originally Posted by HoopsNY View Post

    Pippen outplayed Hornacek, Porter, KJ, and Worthy.


    Pippen was easily outplayed by Stockton, Schrempf, and Majerle, while an injured KJ and Worthy would've smoked him much worse than they smoked 87' Bird or 90' Magic, respectively.

    Perhaps you don't realize that Pippen had Westbrick efficiency at high volume in the 96-98' Playoffs, so the Bulls eeked out wins in spite of him.. He was a huge liability in those Finals and outplayed no one .

    Btw, Stockton was literally Michael Jordan in the clutch of the 97' and 98' Playoffs and Finals - he was right behind Jordan in clutch-time stats for those years, while Pippen was below Ostertag and Hornacek.



    Quote Originally Posted by HoopsNY View Post

    Pippen guarded Magic better than Jordan did in the '91 finals.


    Pippen didn't guard Magic in Ganes 1, 4, 5, or the 4th and OT of Game 3.

    So no, Jordan shut down Magic in the critical Game 3 OT that swung the series and thereafter - Pippen simply gets inflated by a Game 2 blowout that was spearheaded by MJ going 15-18 against maximum defensive attention.



    Quote Originally Posted by HoopsNY View Post

    Did you forget the '93 ECF? Chicago was down 0-2 and MJ shot 3-18 in game 3. It was Pippen who put up 29 points on 10-12 shooting (83%).


    did YOU forget?

    Game 3 was a giveaway game for New York and a laugher

    It was only competitive in the 1st quarter where Jordan had 8 points and 6 assists compared to 6 and 0 for Pippen..

    It was a laugher thereafter, which is why it wasn't reported as a Pippen save.. But now 30 years later we see low-character Lebron fans revise history after finding the game on bballref



    Quote Originally Posted by HoopsNY View Post

    Who was shutting down those Lakers, Utah, Sonics, Blazers, and Suns teams? Why did their numbers drop significantly in the finals


    Jordan is the only guy with a record of shutting guys down - nearly everyone shot 35-44% against him - otoh, everyone gets their regular numbers on Pippen..

    Jordan was assigned the primary defender on Magic, Drexler, Isiah, Payton, and Miller, while getting spot-duty on Stockton, KJ and Porter.. He also placed higher in DPOY votes every year and was recognized as the Bulls best defender.

  9. #144
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    Default Re: Thinking Basketball tracked every Michael Jordan playoff game for a decade...

    Quote Originally Posted by HoopsNY View Post
    https://www.washingtonpost.com/archi...-20a9e95c5370/



    Both articles posted are from 1993. Both mention Pippen AND Jordan having equal contributions AND Pippen "saving" Jordan. Perish in your rage 3ball.
    Damn, well there's some concrete on Scottie that all these guys claim never happened. This, is why some of us say he was one of the best players in the league.

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    Default Re: Thinking Basketball tracked every Michael Jordan playoff game for a decade...

    Quote Originally Posted by sdot_thadon View Post
    Damn, well there's some concrete on Scottie that all these guys claim never happened. This, is why some of us say he was one of the best players in the league.

    Our modern understanding of basketball reveals that Pippen was horrific in the 93' Finals - no sidekick was ever carried like this:


    93' Finals

    Jordan..... 41 on 56 TS.. 2 TO.. 29.6 gamescore
    Pippen..... 21 on 46 TS.. 4 TO.. 15.6 gamescore

    Majerle.... 17 on 59 TS.. 1 TO.. 17.0 gamescore


    That's why the Bulls almost lost.

    Both the Suns & Bulls averaged exactly 106.7 ppg and 113.0 ortg for the series, so every ounce of Jordan's 41/9/6 was needed, while Pippen wet the bed with Westbrick efficiency and turnovers..

    So Pippen was aids in the 93' and 96-98' Finals... Infact, he averaged 17.6 on 41% for the entire 3-peat playoffs (96-98'), so Jordan three-peated with a poor man's Pandemic P
    Last edited by 3ba11; 08-11-2022 at 12:43 PM.

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    Question Re: Thinking Basketball tracked every Michael Jordan playoff game for a decade...

    .
    The video says that Shaq had goat plus/minus from 00-04' but this is a lie:


    Playoff plus/minus per game (totals)

    00' Shaq........ 5.0 (+115)
    01' Shaq...... 11.2 (+186)
    02' Shaq........ 6.2 (+118)
    03' Shaq........ 2.2 (+26)
    04' Shaq........ 4.1 (+91)

    97' Jordan..... 7.2 (+136)
    98' Jordan..... 7.7 (+162)


    So the NBA's data directly contradicts the video's data... But we already knew the percentile methodology was omitted and fake, so the fudged Shaq numbers are no surprise.

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    Default Re: Thinking Basketball tracked every Michael Jordan playoff game for a decade...

    .
    Video Cliffs


    * Most champions have the best cast in the league, but Jordan's best casts from 91-93' ranked in the 75th percentile (1 in 4 casts were better.. data here).

    * Jordan made the 89' and 90' ECF with the worst casts ever - they were 0 percentile, so 100% of casts were better - data here

    * The video doesn't specify the percentile rank for the 2nd three-peat casts because those casts were horrible - none of them outscored opponents without Jordan and they had a 17 point gap in performance with and without him (data here).. Only the 91' and 92' casts outscored opponents without Jordan..

    * The numbers are fake because the video claims that Shaq had goat plus/minus from 00-04' and he did not - his plus/minus during that period was sub-par compared to 97' and 98' Jordan (data in previous post)
    Last edited by 3ba11; 08-11-2022 at 01:20 PM.

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    Default Re: Thinking Basketball tracked every Michael Jordan playoff game for a decade...

    Here are Shaq's playoff ON-OFF Net Rating.

    1997: +17.7
    1998: +11.6
    1999: +14.7
    2000: +22.9
    2001: -0.3
    2002: +22.9
    2003: +11.9
    2004: +25.4

    The 2001 number looks like a blip probably because the Lakers were so dominant. They were crushing teams even when Shaq sat on the bench.

    Anyways this data supports Shaq as a GOAT peak contender but +/- data should never be the only ingredient or even the main one.

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    Default Re: Thinking Basketball tracked every Michael Jordan playoff game for a decade...

    Quote Originally Posted by dankok8 View Post
    Here are Shaq's playoff ON-OFF Net Rating.

    1997: +17.7
    1998: +11.6
    1999: +14.7
    2000: +22.9
    2001: -0.3
    2002: +22.9
    2003: +11.9
    2004: +25.4

    The 2001 number looks like a blip probably because the Lakers were so dominant. They were crushing teams even when Shaq sat on the bench.

    Anyways this data supports Shaq as a GOAT peak contender but +/- data should never be the only ingredient or even the main one.

    ^^^ Those numbers are false

    Here's the NBA's data:


    Playoff Net Rating

    00' Shaq........ 5.7
    01' Shaq...... 14.0
    02' Shaq........ 8.0
    03' Shaq........ 1.7
    04' Shaq........ 4.3

    97' MJ........... 9.0
    98' MJ......... 10.2


    If we look at things like net rating, plus/minus, clutch stats (last 5 within 5), and supporting performances, it's clear that peak Shaq is nowhere near 97' or 98' Jordan.
    Last edited by 3ba11; 08-11-2022 at 02:16 PM.

  15. #150
    NBA All-star
    Join Date
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    Default Re: Thinking Basketball tracked every Michael Jordan playoff game for a decade...

    Quote Originally Posted by 3ba11 View Post
    ^^^ Those numbers are false

    Here's the NBA's data:


    Playoff Net Rating

    00' Shaq........ 5.7
    01' Shaq...... 14.0
    02' Shaq........ 8.0
    03' Shaq........ 1.7
    04' Shaq........ 4.3

    97' MJ........... 9.0
    98' MJ......... 10.2


    If we look at things like net rating, plus/minus, clutch stats (last 5 within 5), and supporting performances, it's clear that peak Shaq is nowhere near 97' or 98' Jordan.

    .
    3ball owns this thread








    Completely exposed the video as both fraud yet still showing MJ to be goat



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