Draymond discusses Melo vs KD as scorers.

[LeGoat4Life]

Oh helllll yeah he's winning a chip with that team.

They also had Birdman and Nene in the rotation, shooters like JR and Kleiza, hustle/defense guys like Carter and Renaldo Balkman. That was a squad. Plus a HOF coach in George Karl. That was the one year Melo got to a conference finals. Lebron EASILY wins a trophy with that team. Not even being a homer.


And of course I'm not saying Lebron wins a title on those Knick teams. But he gets you more wins, and closer to winning a chip than Carmelo does.

And Melo winning a chip on any of Bron's teams is a HARD disagree. The Heat lose significant ball movement and defensive versatility, which were their staples. And obviously there's zero chance he wins in 16 or 20 in place of LBJ.

Lebron won 33 games with an all star team lolol

Melo made the playoff for years on Denver with a much weaker cast

Melo 3peats playing on that Miami team

Sit down boy

[Overdrive]

I think Draymond is another of the guys basketball people see as very different than fans. Fans talk triple single and being a loud mouth then I listen to two nba players who never played with him on a podcast saying they went from thinking he wouldnt last in the league because he didn’t have any particular skill to fall back on to getting on the floor and realizing he was the smartest player in the league.

This actually takes away from Chris' statement although I think he's pretty right in his assessment that fans are on a regular basis more interested in teamwins. The missjudgingment of Dray by fans is kinda weird in that aspect that he is a centerpeace in team success. Yes, he's absolutely useless on a team without a star, but he kills if you pair him with guys like Curry, Reggie, Ray, Bird, Jordan etc. Guys who will score alot but don't need the ball in their hands past half court, guys who'll run off ball sets or thrive in the triple threat. Dray will find them and create offense for them while playing ATG defense.

No doubt. Im just saying, where they rank guys vs where fans rank guys clearly is based on different values, not different evaluations of a common priority. Players are generally judging by how hard it is to stop a guy 1 on 1. Fans care more about whether the guy helps you win or not.

Another aspect is if they ever played with the guy they praise. Alot of praise calms down once they play with a guy, see his idiosyncracies and how they're detrimental to win games or titles.

[Phoenix]

Definitely some truth to this, but scoring efficiency matters a lot at the individual and team level if a player is using up a lot of possessions and not contributing a ton in other ways or making life super easy for teammates off the ball or something.

Melo is a bit odd here because it isn't like he was horribly inefficient or something...and judging him on winning given his help is unfair.

However, I don't think he was good enough to be the clear best player on a title winning team. Maybe he wins in 2011 in place of Lebron, but Wade would have had to be the best player on that team for that to happen.

Melo and Wade had less redundancy in their games, so the latter would have had to take less of a step back and literally tell Lebron 'take the keys, the team is yours now' for them to win. Bosh can probably play closer to his Raptors game as well. In the finals, if Wade plays at least as well as he did I'm confident saying Melo produces the scoring punch that Lebron didn't from games 4-6 and the final result is different. That would have been their one title though, because 2011 was the last year Wade was really 'D-Wade' and Melo wouldn't have won in 2012 or 2013 with those versions of Wade and Bosh. They probably don't even get to the finals those years( and especially 2014).

[DMAVS41]

Melo and Wade had less redundancy in their games, so the latter would have had to take less of a step back and literally tell Lebron 'take the keys, the team is yours now' for them to win. Bosh can probably play closer to his Raptors game as well. In the finals, if Wade plays at least as well as he did I'm confident saying Melo produces the scoring punch that Lebron didn't from games 4-6 and the final result is different. That would have been their one title though, because 2011 was the last year Wade was really 'D-Wade' and Melo wouldn't have won in 2012 or 2013 with those versions of Wade and Bosh. They probably don't even get to the finals those years( and especially 2014).

Yea...given how Lebron played...the offense likely would have been better. However, the Mavs really keying in on Wade or Melo would have made really tough on whichever one, likely Wade, the Mavs wanted to target the most with their defense. It isn't like Wade would have been able to do what he did while facing more defensive attention from the Mavs.

In addition, the Heat's defense would be worse without Lebron in real ways...and I'm not sure how they are stopping Dirk / Terry in late game situations...which likely would be needed for the Heat to win that series as I don't see any version of those games playing out that aren't close.

I'd give the Heat like a 35 to 40 percent chance in the 11 finals with Melo.

The rest of the years in place of Lebron, I agree...I don't really see how they are winning any titles with a player in Melo that is significantly worse than Lebron during those years.

[999Guy]

Definitely some truth to this, but scoring efficiency matters a lot at the individual and team level if a player is using up a lot of possessions and not contributing a ton in other ways or making life super easy for teammates off the ball or something.

Melo is a bit odd here because it isn't like he was horribly inefficient or something...and judging him on winning given his help is unfair.

However, I don't think he was good enough to be the clear best player on a title winning team. Maybe he wins in 2011 in place of Lebron, but Wade would have had to be the best player on that team for that to happen.

Truth to what? It came down to a foul call, and if he cares about his Olympic Medal or NBA titles more.

Draymond did almost zero thought on basketball ability in this comparison. Don’t care how smart he is, he used the dumbest parts of his brain to say this nonsense.

[999Guy]

This idea that LeBron would not win with the 09 Nuggets really bothers me.

We are talking a team that were pretty competitive against the Lakers with Melo, Meloing with his mediocre high volume, low efficiency, no intangible play style.

Old LeBron had the old JR Smith who couldn’t even dunk in half court anymore on fire with just pure timing on skip passes.

Old LeBron showed more synergy with basically retired Deron Williams than Melo had with peak Billups.

It’s such an unrealistic way of seeing basketball to think guys who are polar opposite on substance(Defense, IQ, passing, leadership) would have anywhere near the same team results, especially on a team in the 09 Nuggets, that was actually good with talent.

The 09 Nuggets would be unrecognizable with 09 LeBron. To think teams would automatically be hard-capped at some level of play is absurd. And I’m only really mentioning offense.

Oh yeah, another former Nugget that had an old-ass career revival with LeBron, Birdman Anderson, who even into the playoffs, would just not miss catch and finish plays next to LeBron. Absurd efficiency while way out of his athletic prime.

All the untapped talent LeBron would tap into. You put him next to a true savant with a really athletic bruiser roll game in Nene, and the single best Point Guard skill set imaginable to fit with him in Billups, outside of like, Stephen Curry, or Terry Porter or some smart gunner from 3.

And the result is automatically not being able to beat LA, who just had no answer for him athletically with Ariza/Kobe/Sasha who are simultaneously slower and weaker than him. With who Odom sealing off the paint?

The 09 Nuggets likely reach all-time offensive heights because like I said, LeBron would make guys like Jr Smith, Andersen, Nene, and Billups almost unrecognizable with his creation game.

Jones/LeBron/JR for size and dominant defense on the wings which opens up way more defensive schemes. They ****ing blow that playoff season apart. LeBron’s done more with less.


And PS 09 LeBron had the most outrageously dominant playoff ever statistically. It’s so outrageous it’s easy to do the human nature thing of, “well he couldn’t be that good, has to be overrated”, no he ****ing was. He was just as outrageous in 2010 until he ran into KG.

[warriorfan]

This idea that LeBron would not win with the 09 Nuggets really bothers me.

We are talking a team that were pretty competitive against the Lakers with Melo, Meloing with his mediocre high volume, low efficiency, no intangible play style.

Old LeBron had the old JR Smith who couldn’t even dunk in half court anymore on fire with just pure timing on skip passes.

Old LeBron showed more synergy with basically retired Deron Williams than Melo had with peak Billups.

It’s such an unrealistic way of seeing basketball to think guys who are polar opposite on substance(Defense, IQ, passing, leadership) would have anywhere near the same team results, especially on a team in the 09 Nuggets, that was actually good with talent.

The 09 Nuggets would be unrecognizable with 09 LeBron. To think teams would automatically be hard-capped at some level of play is absurd. And I’m only really mentioning offense.

Oh yeah, another former Nugget that had an old-ass career revival with LeBron, Birdman Anderson, who even into the playoffs, would just not miss catch and finish plays next to LeBron. Absurd efficiency while way out of his athletic prime.

All the untapped talent LeBron would tap into. You put him next to a true savant with a really athletic bruiser roll game in Nene, and the single best Point Guard skill set imaginable to fit with him in Billups, outside of like, Stephen Curry, or Terry Porter or some smart gunner from 3.

And the result is automatically not being able to beat LA, who just had no answer for him athletically with Ariza/Kobe/Sasha who are simultaneously slower and weaker than him. With who Odom sealing off the paint?

The 09 Nuggets likely reach all-time offensive heights because like I said, LeBron would make guys like Jr Smith, Andersen, Nene, and Billups almost unrecognizable with his creation game.

Jones/LeBron/JR for size and dominant defense on the wings which opens up way more defensive schemes. They ****ing blow that playoff season apart. LeBron’s done more with less.


And PS 09 LeBron had the most outrageously dominant playoff ever statistically. It’s so outrageous it’s easy to do the human nature thing of, “well he couldn’t be that good, has to be overrated”, no he ****ing was. He was just as outrageous in 2010 until he ran into KG.

He was outrageous until he quit on his team and faked an elbow injury and was shooting free throws left handed

No damage was ever found during x rays and mri.
https://syndication.bleacherreport.c...njury.amp.html

[sdot_thadon]

I think that guys who play respect the degree of difficulty plays more because they understand how hard it is to take and make those shots. Alot of us fans see it as if you can make a better play why not do so? Numbers can never be the end all argument but they paint pretty clear pictures in these cases imo.

[sdot_thadon]

He was outrageous until he quit on his team and faked an elbow injury and was shooting free throws left handed

No damage was ever found during x rays and mri.
https://syndication.bleacherreport.c...njury.amp.html

And what kind of rehab did you prescribe for him Dr. Rando netguy?

[warriorfan]

And what kind of rehab did you prescribe for him Dr. Rando netguy?

Nothing at all because there was literally no injury

“I don’t honestly know what is going on,” said James, who had an X-ray and an MRI on the elbow on Monday that showed no structural damage.

.




https://www.slamonline.com/nba/lebro...-elbow-injury/

Fume more bro

[Kblaze8855]

This idea that LeBron would not win with the 09 Nuggets really bothers me.
.

If you didn’t know he lost with the best teammate he ever had(Prime Wade who was pretty much as good as he was) you would probably be bothered by the idea he’d lose with him too. Doesn’t mean it didn’t happen. The 09 Nuggets wouldn’t be the most talent he ever lost with and the 09 Lakers would be among the best team he ever played. It’s hardly out of the question. It’s just Lebron plus a good but not amazing team.

Equal(Better) players have lost with more talent vs worse teams than they would have to take out to win in 09.

[999Guy]

If you didn’t know he lost with the best teammate he ever had(Prime Wade who was pretty much as good as he was) you would probably be bothered by the idea he’d lose with him too. Doesn’t mean it didn’t happen. The 09 Nuggets wouldn’t be the most talent he ever lost with and the 09 Lakers would be among the best team he ever played. It’s hardly out of the question. It’s just Lebron plus a good but not amazing team.

Equal(Better) players have lost with more talent vs worse teams than they would have to take out to win in 09.

What is talent? Is it names? Or is it actual quality of play?

The Miami Heat had more “talent”(which again to me sounds like name recognition and nothing else) than the 13 Spurs who outplayed them and the 14 Spurs who raped them.

I mean, think about what you are saying. You using the idea LeBron played on teams that lost with a lot of “talent” to judge him instead of the teams but while treating LeBron like a career-long constant.

No differences across years or situations, but yet defining him by isolated team results. Do you understand how dumb that is? If LeBron is this constant in your mind(I mean the idea of 09 LeBron and 11 LeBron being that same is just pathetic to me), shouldn’t his teams be the critique of the way they’re built?

Your logic, if I could even call it that, is so fragile, can it survive this question:
Why did LeBron win twice with a destroyed Wade but lose with one in his prime? And why would you be able to assume other results when apparently your talent philosophy on team level doesn’t even hold up past the one year you judge it.

My point is simple and much less convoluted and logical than all that. LeBron is much better for a basketball team than Melo, and it’s tangible observable thing, not just a lousy assumption, he had near-retired Birdman Andersen shooting at 80% from the field in 2013….Lol. Which again, is the answer to my question about why LeBron would win in 2013, but lose in 2011 despite Wade dominating and sucking. Lol. ****ing actual reality blends into this argument to completely prove my point. LeBron elevates more with the actual talent and depth he had on the Cavs and the talent that was on the 09 Nuggets.

And old JR shooting like 50% from 3.

Nene Hilario is better than Tristan Thompson at everything on the court. Hell he’d be the best center LeBron played with.

But I know you’re logic-proof already. You got a shitty emotional hunch and you’ll do anything to flail and grasp onto it.

I’m done here, cause I could cross-examine reality and people horseshit all day but you are literally, literally 3ball level with being thinking proof, spamming, and sniping little quotes instead of confronting critical thought. Which I know you’ll do again because how else would someone justify thinking peak LeBron of all people can’t tilt a close playoff series on a team he fits perfectly when replacing a dud pseudo-star.

[Kblaze8855]

Reading that meandering mess was like a road trip to nowhere. This must be what people feel like when I write one of those stream of consciousness posts about nothing that end abruptly with no real point being made. I’m rarely on this end of one.

Unbelievably long story short….I don’t think it’s a given Lebron wins with a good team just because he’s Lebron because I’ve seen him not win with enough good teams to know that. He’s had about 9-10 really good teams and has won quite a bit less than that.

Youre free to take issue with it. I’m free to largely disregard your opinion. The nuggets were never a team to just assume Lebron wins in place of Melo. Just weren’t that good. Not “Obviously gonna win if healthy” good. Few lineups are.