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  1. #61
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    Default Re: If MJ had a go-to teammate that could dominate, he would've scored less (easier l

    Quote Originally Posted by RRR3 View Post
    I’m legitimately not sure 80 wins is possible without an absolutely comically lopsided edge in talent due to simple variance. Still very interesting data, thanks for posting. Despite what 3ball will think it doesn’t take away from MJ’a GOAT case, it’s literally just interesting info. 3ball will respond with an essay on why LeBron is the worst player ever like he usually does when he’s faced with something he can’t actually argue with.
    Yea, a bit of hyperbole on my part there. But I'm guessing if they were able to win an average of 66 wins in the two three-peats, then it's very likely they average maybe 70-71 wins if MJ shoots less and distributes more. He was certainly capable of it as evidenced by the first three-peat, especially in the finals.

  2. #62
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    Default Re: If MJ had a go-to teammate that could dominate, he would've scored less (easier l

    Quote Originally Posted by sdot_thadon View Post
    Well, Ho-ly shit if you didn't prove a few hunches far beyond what i thought. Good stuff man, married folk friday is a thing i can confirm that. He's gonna abandon ship on this one.
    Thanks brody. There just isn't any other way of explaining. Chicago's success is far exceeding when MJ shot the ball less. Now I do admit that there are several other factors to consider. Maybe his teammates were off those games? We'd have to go in and see how his teammates did in comparison to him during that time.

    Intuition tells me that his teammates were no better or worse when he shot the ball more. It's just what he did. The sample is also immense, spanning about 500 games, so there has to be some credence to it.

    3ball always acts like MJ had to shoot that many times....maybe he did, maybe he didn't. The fact remains is that Chicago was almost unbeatable when he shot less. So even if his teammates couldn't give him "25-30 PPG", then it doesn't matter. Chicago had a better winning formula despite that.

  3. #63
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    Default Re: If MJ had a go-to teammate that could dominate, he would've scored less (easier l

    Quote Originally Posted by HoopsNY View Post
    Thanks brody. There just isn't any other way of explaining. Chicago's success is far exceeding when MJ shot the ball less. Now I do admit that there are several other factors to consider. Maybe his teammates were off those games? We'd have to go in and see how his teammates did in comparison to him during that time.

    Intuition tells me that his teammates were no better or worse when he shot the ball more. It's just what he did. The sample is also immense, spanning about 500 games, so there has to be some credence to it.

    3ball always acts like MJ had to shoot that many times....maybe he did, maybe he didn't. The fact remains is that Chicago was almost unbeatable when he shot less. So even if his teammates couldn't give him "25-30 PPG", then it doesn't matter. Chicago had a better winning formula despite that.
    He thinks players suck if they don’t score 20 PPG. Hence why he dismisses Horace Grant as a scrub. Hell he recently said Al Horford was a bum which is absurd.

  4. #64
    2.0 patch Phoenix's Avatar
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    Default Re: If MJ had a go-to teammate that could dominate, he would've scored less (easier l

    Quote Originally Posted by HoopsNY View Post
    I'm going through each season to see how MJ's teammates did when he attempted 15 or fewer FGA (ended up using a few seasons with less than 16 or 20 FGA):

    1991: 12 games | Only 2 players had games with more than 22 points (Paxson 26, Pippen 28). Grant was mostly between 6-17 points.

    1992: 8 games | Pippen had two 23 point games, a 27 and 29 point game, BJ had a 16 and 18 pt game, Grant was again between 6-17 points.

    *1993: 8 games | More of the same

    *1995: 6 games | Pippen had one 29 point game, Kukoc had 20, 16, and 19 point games

    1996: 6 games | Pippen had a 30, 27, and 22 pt game, the rest were pretty bad; rest of the cast was more of the same, 10-16 pt performances.

    **1997: 8 games | Pippen had a 26 point game, Kukoc an 18 point game, 24 point game, Longley had two 16 point games

    1998: 8 games | Pippen had a 29 point game , Kukoc had a 21 and 19 point game, Longley a 21 and 16 point game

    Chicago's records during this time:

    1991: 11-1 (faced 5 playoff teams, rest were terrible)
    1992: 8-0 (faced 4 playoff teams, 4 terrible teams)
    1993: 8-0 (faced 1 playoff team)
    1995: 6-0 (faced 4 playoff teams, but two of them were against the 36 win Celtics)
    1996: 21-1 when MJ took less than 20 FGA
    1997: 7-1 (All playoff teams with the exception of one)
    1998: 8-0 (2 of the 8 teams were playoff teams)

    A further look with MJ's FGA using 20 more or less FGA:

    '91 >20 FGA: 42-20
    '91 <20 FGA: 19-1

    '92 >20 FGA: 43-13
    '92 <20 FGA: 24-0

    '93 >20 FGA: 48-22
    '93 <20 FGA: 8-0

    '95 >20 FGA: 7-4
    '95 <20 FGA: 6-0

    '96 >20 FGA: 51-9
    '96 <20 FGA: 21-1

    '97 >20 FGA: 49-11
    '97 <20 FGA: 21-2

    '98 >20 FGA: 45-17
    '98 <20 FGA: 17-3


    MJ '91-'98 >20 FGA: 285-96 (.748%)
    MJ '91-'98 <20 FGA: 116-7 (.945%)


    My take: Jordan was a ball hog. Chicago would have done better in the regular season with him shooting less. I mean got damn...they won 95% of their games when MJ shot the ball 19 or fewer times. These numbers are utterly staggering. Chicago might have had a couple 80 win seasons if Jordan used his teammates the way LeBron uses his.

    At the same time, Chicago's cast wasn't producing the way that people are thinking. Judging from the samples where MJ generally shot less than 15 (and some less than 20) FGA a game, guys like Pippen, Grant, and Kukoc weren't blowing up the box score.

    So both are true. Chicago's cast wasn't great offensively, but at the same time, MJ didn't maximize the talents and abilities of his teammates. I feel Kukoc could have been used more, as well as Paxon, Armstrong, and Longley. i don't think Pippen would have done more. 1994 and 1995 pretty much proved that.






    *1993 and 1995 I used fewer than 20 FGA since the data sample was small with 15 or fewer FGA.

    *1997 I used 16 FGA or fewer cause it was only three games with 15 or fewer, but I got lazy and didn't wanna use all less than 20 since it was 22 games in total lol
    Great post, and far more effort than this topic( and the thread creator specifically) deserves. Your 80 win take is a bit over the top but its not hard to extrapolate that they'd have crossed the 70 win line in 92 and been north of 75 wins in 96 and 97.
    Last edited by Phoenix; 08-13-2022 at 12:52 PM.

  5. #65
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    Default Re: If MJ had a go-to teammate that could dominate, he would've scored less (easier l

    Harper was severely diminished by the time he arrived in Chicago the same way that Penny in Phoenix was not the same Penny as in Orlando and that's not a diss towards Harp he was always locked in on D and contributed offensively in his selective ways. If Harper had more to give we would have seen way more scoring outbursts based off sheer talent alone but he was not the same player he was in LA, not even close. Look at 98 with Pip refusing surgery. If Harper is as good as you guys seem to think he would have been utilized as 2A or 2B next to Rodman. It didn't happen and the Bulls would have taken scoring from the popcorn vendor if he could provide it.

    You guys forget basketball is not played through the stat sheet. It tells you a lot but in no way does it give you the full story.

  6. #66
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    Default Re: If MJ had a go-to teammate that could dominate, he would've scored less (easier l

    Quote Originally Posted by Phoenix View Post
    Great post, and far more effort than this topic( and the thread creator specifically) deserves. Your 80 win take is a bit over the top but its not hard to extrapolate that they'd have crossed the 70 win line in 92 and been north of 75 wins in 96 and 97.
    Yea, I admit that the 80 win mark is exaggerated, but it drove home the point. Chicago won 95% of their games when MJ shot the ball less than 20 times a game. They did similar in the postseason (90%). It's obvious that this cast made up of guys like Pippen, Kukoc, Rodman, Grant, Armstrong, and Paxson was so potent that most guys would have won in his place.

  7. #67
    NBA Legend 97 bulls's Avatar
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    Default Re: If MJ had a go-to teammate that could dominate, he would've scored less (easier l

    Quote Originally Posted by FilmyCogTurner View Post
    Harper was severely diminished by the time he arrived in Chicago the same way that Penny in Phoenix was not the same Penny as in Orlando and that's not a diss towards Harp he was always locked in on D and contributed offensively in his selective ways. If Harper had more to give we would have seen way more scoring outbursts based off sheer talent alone but he was not the same player he was in LA, not even close. Look at 98 with Pip refusing surgery. If Harper is as good as you guys seem to think he would have been utilized as 2A or 2B next to Rodman. It didn't happen and the Bulls would have taken scoring from the popcorn vendor if he could provide it.

    You guys forget basketball is not played through the stat sheet. It tells you a lot but in no way does it give you the full story.
    Harper wasn't "severely" diminished when he joined the Bulls. His role changed. The year before he joined the Bulls, he was a 20ppg scorer. But he was more of a focal point on offense in LA, and the Clippers didn't run the same offense as the Bulls.

  8. #68
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    Default Re: If MJ had a go-to teammate that could dominate, he would've scored less (easier l

    Quote Originally Posted by HoopsNY View Post
    Yea, I admit that the 80 win mark is exaggerated, but it drove home the point. Chicago won 95% of their games when MJ shot the ball less than 20 times a game. They did similar in the postseason (90%). It's obvious that this cast made up of guys like Pippen, Kukoc, Rodman, Grant, Armstrong, and Paxson was so potent that most guys would have won in his place.
    Only MJ could have won on the Bulls. Pippen’s weak, trash jump-shooting no skill style required a deadly iso scorer to carry the load. Otoh, LeBron is the worst player ever and was carried by Wade, Kyrie and AD because he lacks elite jump shooting skill.

  9. #69
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    Default Re: If MJ had a go-to teammate that could dominate, he would've scored less (easier l

    Quote Originally Posted by 97 bulls View Post
    Harper wasn't "severely" diminished when he joined the Bulls. His role changed. The year before he joined the Bulls, he was a 20ppg scorer. But he was more of a focal point on offense in LA, and the Clippers didn't run the same offense as the Bulls.
    Yes he was. Compared to the athletic scorer he was before the knee injury and coupled with already have 10 years in the league meant it was time to change his role and reduce it.

    Some players are out of the league period due to injuries but he was able to make it work as a 4-5th type option.

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    Default Re: If MJ had a go-to teammate that could dominate, he would've scored less (easier l

    Quote Originally Posted by HoopsNY View Post
    I'm going through each season to see how MJ's teammates did when he attempted 15 or fewer FGA (ended up using a few seasons with less than 16 or 20 FGA):

    1991: 12 games | Only 2 players had games with more than 22 points (Paxson 26, Pippen 28). Grant was mostly between 6-17 points.

    1992: 8 games | Pippen had two 23 point games, a 27 and 29 point game, BJ had a 16 and 18 pt game, Grant was again between 6-17 points.

    *1993: 8 games | More of the same

    *1995: 6 games | Pippen had one 29 point game, Kukoc had 20, 16, and 19 point games

    1996: 6 games | Pippen had a 30, 27, and 22 pt game, the rest were pretty bad; rest of the cast was more of the same, 10-16 pt performances.

    **1997: 8 games | Pippen had a 26 point game, Kukoc an 18 point game, 24 point game, Longley had two 16 point games

    1998: 8 games | Pippen had a 29 point game , Kukoc had a 21 and 19 point game, Longley a 21 and 16 point game

    Chicago's records during this time:

    1991: 11-1 (faced 5 playoff teams, rest were terrible)
    1992: 8-0 (faced 4 playoff teams, 4 terrible teams)
    1993: 8-0 (faced 1 playoff team)
    1995: 6-0 (faced 4 playoff teams, but two of them were against the 36 win Celtics)
    1996: 21-1 when MJ took less than 20 FGA
    1997: 7-1 (All playoff teams with the exception of one)
    1998: 8-0 (2 of the 8 teams were playoff teams)

    A further look with MJ's FGA using 20 more or less FGA:

    '91 >20 FGA: 42-20
    '91 <20 FGA: 19-1

    '92 >20 FGA: 43-13
    '92 <20 FGA: 24-0

    '93 >20 FGA: 48-22
    '93 <20 FGA: 8-0

    '95 >20 FGA: 7-4
    '95 <20 FGA: 6-0

    '96 >20 FGA: 51-9
    '96 <20 FGA: 21-1

    '97 >20 FGA: 49-11
    '97 <20 FGA: 21-2

    '98 >20 FGA: 45-17
    '98 <20 FGA: 17-3


    MJ '91-'98 >20 FGA: 285-96 (.748%)
    MJ '91-'98 <20 FGA: 116-7 (.945%)


    My take: Jordan was a ball hog. Chicago would have done better in the regular season with him shooting less. I mean got damn...they won 95% of their games when MJ shot the ball 19 or fewer times. These numbers are utterly staggering. Chicago might have had a couple 80 win seasons if Jordan used his teammates the way LeBron uses his.

    At the same time, Chicago's cast wasn't producing the way that people are thinking. Judging from the samples where MJ generally shot less than 15 (and some less than 20) FGA a game, guys like Pippen, Grant, and Kukoc weren't blowing up the box score.

    So both are true. Chicago's cast wasn't great offensively, but at the same time, MJ didn't maximize the talents and abilities of his teammates. I feel Kukoc could have been used more, as well as Paxon, Armstrong, and Longley. i don't think Pippen would have done more. 1994 and 1995 pretty much proved that.






    *1993 and 1995 I used fewer than 20 FGA since the data sample was small with 15 or fewer FGA.

    *1997 I used 16 FGA or fewer cause it was only three games with 15 or fewer, but I got lazy and didn't wanna use all less than 20 since it was 22 games in total lol

    Yes MJ was a smart player that shot less when teammates had it going and he was literally unbeatable with this caliber of help that everyone else in the league enjoys.

    The rest of the time (the vast majority), MJ had to shoot unprecedented amounts and still had a pretty impressive record despite the goat carry-job volume

    So your data makes my point - Jordan could shoot less with teammates that stepped up and was virtually unbeatable with this kind of real help that didn't require him to shoot goat amounts.

    Btw, everyone played to within 90% of their career highs (capacity) alongside Jordan - this fact (the cast playing to capacity) along with Pippen's worst-ever efficiency confirms that the cast couldn't handle a bigger burden, in addition to zero cast members stepping up to a dominant level in any series (0/37)

  11. #71
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    Default Re: If MJ had a go-to teammate that could dominate, he would've scored less (easier l

    Quote Originally Posted by HoopsNY View Post
    Yea, I admit that the 80 win mark is exaggerated, but it drove home the point. Chicago won 95% of their games when MJ shot the ball less than 20 times a game. They did similar in the postseason (90%). It's obvious that this cast made up of guys like Pippen, Kukoc, Rodman, Grant, Armstrong, and Paxson was so potent that most guys would have won in his place.
    It's a really interesting finding.

    There could be more to the story. A lot of those games could have been blowout wins and since MJ generally shot much more in the 4th quarter, that could have been the reason why he tended to shoot less in wins. Because it wasn't needed.

    I think it's hard to say if the Bulls would have been better or worse if MJ shot less. If he shot less, he would have also attracted fewer defensive attention which would have instead been focused on his teammates which could drive their shooting percentages down. I don't know. Basketball isn't played in a vacuum.

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    Default Re: If MJ had a go-to teammate that could dominate, he would've scored less (easier l

    Quote Originally Posted by dankok8 View Post

    If he shot less, he would have also attracted fewer defensive attention which would have instead been focused on his teammates which could drive their shooting percentages down. I don't know. Basketball isn't played in a vacuum.

    In the 93' Finals, the Bulls and Suns averaged exactly 106.7 ppg and 113.0 ORTG, while Pippen shot 46% true shooting - so who should shoot more over Jordan???

    It can't be Pippen because his efficiency is already worst-ever... So you're saying that Paxson or Horace should take shots from Jordan?

    Lebron fans have just made up a bunch of nonsensical stuff and this one takes the cake (that Jordan could've shot less and still won, or that Jordan was scoring champ because he shot the most or "wanted to", not needed to)
    Last edited by 3ba11; 08-13-2022 at 09:35 PM.

  13. #73
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    Default Re: If MJ had a go-to teammate that could dominate, he would've scored less (easier l

    HoopsNY is a LeBron fan now. 3ball is dumber than a lamppost.

  14. #74
    NBA Legend 97 bulls's Avatar
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    Default Re: If MJ had a go-to teammate that could dominate, he would've scored less (easier l

    Quote Originally Posted by dankok8 View Post
    It's a really interesting finding.

    There could be more to the story. A lot of those games could have been blowout wins and since MJ generally shot much more in the 4th quarter, that could have been the reason why he tended to shoot less in wins. Because it wasn't needed.

    I think it's hard to say if the Bulls would have been better or worse if MJ shot less. If he shot less, he would have also attracted fewer defensive attention which would have instead been focused on his teammates which could drive their shooting percentages down. I don't know. Basketball isn't played in a vacuum.
    You have a point, but let's not forget that without MJ, the Bulls won 55 games. And that's with Pippen missing 10 games in which they went 4-6. So the Bulls were just that good.

    The information Hoops put out combined with the Bulls 94 season shows that they didn't need MJ to score 30 a night to dominate. Hell even the 95 season without Grant and Mj and the Bulls were still won 52% of their games.
    Last edited by 97 bulls; 08-13-2022 at 10:49 PM.

  15. #75
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    Default Re: If MJ had a go-to teammate that could dominate, he would've scored less (easier l

    Quote Originally Posted by HoopsNY View Post
    I'm going through each season to see how MJ's teammates did when he attempted 15 or fewer FGA (ended up using a few seasons with less than 16 or 20 FGA):

    1991: 12 games | Only 2 players had games with more than 22 points (Paxson 26, Pippen 28). Grant was mostly between 6-17 points.

    1992: 8 games | Pippen had two 23 point games, a 27 and 29 point game, BJ had a 16 and 18 pt game, Grant was again between 6-17 points.

    *1993: 8 games | More of the same

    *1995: 6 games | Pippen had one 29 point game, Kukoc had 20, 16, and 19 point games

    1996: 6 games | Pippen had a 30, 27, and 22 pt game, the rest were pretty bad; rest of the cast was more of the same, 10-16 pt performances.

    **1997: 8 games | Pippen had a 26 point game, Kukoc an 18 point game, 24 point game, Longley had two 16 point games

    1998: 8 games | Pippen had a 29 point game , Kukoc had a 21 and 19 point game, Longley a 21 and 16 point game

    Chicago's records during this time:

    1991: 11-1 (faced 5 playoff teams, rest were terrible)
    1992: 8-0 (faced 4 playoff teams, 4 terrible teams)
    1993: 8-0 (faced 1 playoff team)
    1995: 6-0 (faced 4 playoff teams, but two of them were against the 36 win Celtics)
    1996: 21-1 when MJ took less than 20 FGA
    1997: 7-1 (All playoff teams with the exception of one)
    1998: 8-0 (2 of the 8 teams were playoff teams)

    A further look with MJ's FGA using 20 more or less FGA:

    '91 >20 FGA: 42-20
    '91 <20 FGA: 19-1

    '92 >20 FGA: 43-13
    '92 <20 FGA: 24-0

    '93 >20 FGA: 48-22
    '93 <20 FGA: 8-0

    '95 >20 FGA: 7-4
    '95 <20 FGA: 6-0

    '96 >20 FGA: 51-9
    '96 <20 FGA: 21-1

    '97 >20 FGA: 49-11
    '97 <20 FGA: 21-2

    '98 >20 FGA: 45-17
    '98 <20 FGA: 17-3


    MJ '91-'98 >20 FGA: 285-96 (.748%)
    MJ '91-'98 <20 FGA: 116-7 (.945%)


    My take: Jordan was a ball hog. Chicago would have done better in the regular season with him shooting less. I mean got damn...they won 95% of their games when MJ shot the ball 19 or fewer times. These numbers are utterly staggering. Chicago might have had a couple 80 win seasons if Jordan used his teammates the way LeBron uses his.

    At the same time, Chicago's cast wasn't producing the way that people are thinking. Judging from the samples where MJ generally shot less than 15 (and some less than 20) FGA a game, guys like Pippen, Grant, and Kukoc weren't blowing up the box score.

    So both are true. Chicago's cast wasn't great offensively, but at the same time, MJ didn't maximize the talents and abilities of his teammates. I feel Kukoc could have been used more, as well as Paxon, Armstrong, and Longley. i don't think Pippen would have done more. 1994 and 1995 pretty much proved that.






    *1993 and 1995 I used fewer than 20 FGA since the data sample was small with 15 or fewer FGA.

    *1997 I used 16 FGA or fewer cause it was only three games with 15 or fewer, but I got lazy and didn't wanna use all less than 20 since it was 22 games in total lol
    Quote Originally Posted by HoopsNY View Post
    Added to the above...

    Pippen >20 FGA '91-'93: 17-18 (26.4 PPG)

    Pippen >20 FGA '94-'95: 16-17 (27.7 PPG)

    Pippen >20 FGA: '96-'98: 26-3 (28.6 PPG)

    Make of this what you will, but from 1991-95, Pippen put up 27 PPG but Chicago finished just 33-35 when he did. Then from 1996-98, Chicago dominated where he put up almost 29 PPG. To be fair, Chicago was winning almost every game those years (1996-98). Chicago went 172-31 in the games Pippen played those years, an .847%.
    Quote Originally Posted by HoopsNY View Post
    Hey 97, it gets even better....here's the playoff numbers...

    MJ '91-'98 w/20+ FGA: 77-29 (.726%) | 33.8 PPG

    MJ '91-'98 w/-20 FGA: 18-2 (.900%) | 25.4 PPG

    Oh 3balllll....where are youuuuu......dumbass
    Jesus Christ. You just rendered OP's lifework meaningless

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