If MJ had a go-to teammate that could dominate, he would've scored less (easier load)

[RRR3]

I got this dude writing documents. I didn't read by the way, I entertain your bullshit on the occasions I'm passing through here and bored. You've spent the past few days reeling from Hoops post and having a psychotic breakdown at how badly every single person you've engaged here has destroyed you( nothing new under the sun). You've been utterly skull-raped.

He’s used to just me and you bullying him. Hoops and others joining in ruined him

[97 bulls]

This is true, but I wonder how much the league takes culpability for pushing individuals over teams. Even when you had Magic playing Bird the overall picture of it being 'Lakers vs Celtics' wasn't tossed in the background.

The league has plenty of culpability. And I can't say it's not working. The NBA has never been more popular.

But on a forum full of basketball "purists"? I expect more.

It seemed to really get started in 91 when "Magic vs Michael" was marketed. But it's gone totally haywire to the rest of the team being ignored, to fans flat out diminishing their contributions in order to prop up the player.

[97 bulls]

He’s used to just me and you bullying him. Hoops and others joining in ruined him

And you guys were doing an awesome job lol.

[HoopsNY]

Because Jordan's teammates played to capacity alongside him.

Your ultimate contention is that they didn't but the stats prove that they did

Your contention is that Pippen was infact a 25 ppg guy, and Paxson was infact a 17 ppg guy, and Grant was infact a 20 ppg player

They weren't and everyone knew this back then and now (except for a certain subculture of Lebron fans).

Nowhere did I claim that Pippen was a 25 PPG guy, or Paxson 17, or Grant 20. Re-read what I actually said.

Those are the games that teammates played above their normal capability like games where Pippen had 26 points or Paxson had 18

Not really. The data showed Pippen putting up 22-28 PPG, Armstrong around 16, same with Grant, and Kukoc around 17-18. These are numbers typically higher that what they would produce with MJ.

^^^ That's normal help for most guys like Lebron or Magic and they win about 50-60 games a year with it... But Jordan wins 78-80 games (95% win rate according to your data) - he's basically unbeatable with this kind of help..

Yea, I didn't say otherwise, though. The contention was that other guys couldn't score more. They could.

The problem is that Jordan didn't get this help for entire seasons like Magic or Lebron - Jordan's sidekicks never averaged 25 in any season and his 3rd options never averaged 18.. His help was far less, so he had to carry the load with 20+ shots in about 80% of games (goat load).. Obviously, his carry-job record was goat but still not enough to win 80 games.

How could they help anymore than they did with MJ monopolizing 20-25 FGA a game? There's only so many shots to go around.

But notice you completely ignored what I said here...

I never brought up the '93 finals specifically. But if you want to go there, then look at the following:

'93 FS Armstrong: 61% TS%
'93 FS Grant: 55% TS%
'93 FS Paxson: 83% TS%

Hell, Trent Tucker shot 7-10 (70%) in that series. Look at the efficiency numbers if you don't believe me:

'93 MJ: .508 % FGs, .400% 3pt

'93 CHI Cast: .469% FGs, .500% 3pt

I don't know about you, but a cast that shoots 47% from the field and 50% from three point range is not horrendous on anyone's scale. Do you really want me to go into the data of some other casts in the finals and show you? Actually, let's look at Phoenix's cast's FGs and 3s in the finals while we're at it.

'93 Barkley: .476% FGs, .250% 3pt

'92 PHO Cast: .465% FGs, .462 3pt

Would you look at that? Chicago's cast shot the ball slightly better than Phoenix. Even if you want to say that the difference is minimal, then the point that you're making isn't substantiated. Clearly Chicago's cast was shooting the ball well. Who hit the game winner in game 6? It was Paxson.

[RRR3]

Nowhere did I claim that Pippen was a 25 PPG guy, or Paxson 17, or Grant 20. Re-read what I actually said.



Not really. The data showed Pippen putting up 22-28 PPG, Armstrong around 16, same with Grant, and Kukoc around 17-18. These are numbers typically higher that what they would produce with MJ.



Yea, I didn't say otherwise, though. The contention was that other guys couldn't score more. They could.



How could they help anymore than they did with MJ monopolizing 20-25 FGA a game? There's only so many shots to go around.

But notice you completely ignored what I said here...

I swear he just argues to argue. Arguably most of the people who engage him have Jordan as the GOAT (Phoenix, you, SouBeach, me). Although he probably thinks SouBeach and I think LeBron is the GOAT . I have LeBron #2 if you’re curious which is obviously way too high for 3ball

[Phoenix]

I swear he just argues to argue. Arguably most of the people who engage him have Jordan as the GOAT (Phoenix, you, SouBeach, me). Although he probably thinks SouBeach and I think LeBron is the GOAT . I have LeBron #2 if you’re curious which is obviously way too high for 3ball

I've actually reached a point of not really having a defined 'GOAT'. I just think its too arbitrary and subjective and the conversation is so worn now that every possible point and argument has been made about it. I find the discussion on it pretty boring now. MJ is my favorite player, but I'm not maniacally obsessed with defending his legacy ( as some anonymous poster on a forum) and there's a danger of being so caught in the past that you can't appreciate what's in front of you and you end up needlessly hating and tearing down other greats. I don't really care if someone has Lebron, or Kareem, or Russell etc etc as their GOAT based on whatever criteria they're going by, but this board is long past the point of where you can hope to have any decent conversation on the topic. It's just a lot of 'gotcha' memes, context-less arguing points and cheerleading, good for a laugh at the absurdity of it all.

[SouBeachTalents]

I've actually reached a point of not really having a defined 'GOAT'. I just think its too arbitrary and subjective and the conversation is so worn now that every possible point and argument has been made about it. I find the discussion on it pretty boring now. MJ is my favorite player, but I'm not maniacally obsessed with defending his legacy ( as some anonymous poster on a forum) and don't really care if someone has Lebron, or Kareem, or Russell etc etc as their GOAT based on whatever criteria they're going by.

Yeah, for me personally, Jordan/LeBron/Kareem are in the GOAT tier, if FORCED to rank them they'd probably go in that order. If we're talking peak, throw Wilt/Shaq/Hakeem into the mix.

[Phoenix]

Yeah, for me personally, Jordan/LeBron/Kareem are in the GOAT tier, if FORCED to rank them they'd probably go in that order. If we're talking peak, throw Wilt/Shaq/Hakeem into the mix.

That's what I do, a tiered system. The players you mention are my first tier as well but I have Russell in there. All of them present interesting cases with some combination of statistical dominance, individual and team accolades.

[3ba11]

The data showed Pippen putting up 22-28 PPG when MJ took less than 20 FGA... Armstrong around 16, same with Grant

Pippen wasn't a 22-28 ppg player - he was an 18-22 ppg player and 14 outside the triangle.

So your data simply shows how rarely Pippen was able to be a 22-28 ppg player, thus allowing MJ to take less than 20 shots.

Again, Pippen's peak was 22 in 1994 (14 outside the triangle and dynasty chemistry that he grew up in)...

however, you know who WAS a 22-28 ppg player or better???... Kareem, AD, Wade, Kyrie, Love and Bosh - Lebron and Magic only won 50-60 games with this level of help, while MJ's win rate was 80 games (based on your data)..

Are we done here?

All that research you did simply shows how rarely Jordan got help and how he was unbeatable when he did... And his record is also the best by far at carry-jobs (+20 FGA).

Btw, Grant and Armstrong aren't 16 ppg guys either just like Pippen isn't 22-28.

[97 bulls]

Pippen wasn't a 22-28 ppg player - he was an 18-22 ppg player and 14 outside the triangle.

So your data simply shows how rarely Pippen was able to be a 22-28 ppg player, thus allowing MJ to take less than 20 shots.

Again, Pippen's peak was 22 in 1994 (14 outside the triangle and dynasty chemistry that he grew up in)...

however, you know who WAS a 22-28 ppg player or better???... Kareem, AD, Wade, Kyrie, Love and Bosh - Lebron and Magic only won 50-60 games with this level of help, while MJ's win rate was 80 games (based on your data)..

Are we done here?

All that research you did simply shows how rarely Jordan got help and how he was unbeatable when he did... And his record is also the best by far at carry-jobs (+20 FGA).

Btw, Grant and Armstrong aren't 16 ppg guys either just like Pippen isn't 22-28.

No sir. The Trump card is always gonna be that Jordan himself said he averaged 30+ because he wanted to. It's what he set out to do. We don't know what Pippens max would've been because Pippen is on record saying he didn't trt to go out and score 25+ppg.

[3ba11]

No sir. The Trump card is always gonna be that Jordan himself said he averaged 30+ because he wanted to. It's what he set out to do. We don't know what Pippens max would've been because Pippen is on record saying he didn't trt to go out and score 25+ppg.

A weak argument that I pay no mind and no one thinks is strong

Otoh, HoopsNY posted the actual numbers... Pippen was able to play over his head 24% of the time (22-28 ppg), which allowed MJ to shoot less than 20 times

So MJ would shoot less when teammates had it going - that's what any high IQ player does... It's called basketball.. And when he did score, it was sufficiently off-ball to maintain good chemistry and fits.. This is also high IQ

And unlike MJ, guys like Lebron and Magic actually had teammates that averaged 22-28 and more, yet they only won 50-60 games a year - whereas Jordan's win rate was 80 (95%) when he had their help

[FilmyCogTurner]

3ball belongs in the insane asylum but he's correct in this case.

[FilmyCogTurner]

No sir. The Trump card is always gonna be that Jordan himself said he averaged 30+ because he wanted to. It's what he set out to do. We don't know what Pippens max would've been because Pippen is on record saying he didn't trt to go out and score 25+ppg.

Jordan could still set out to accomplish his goal of 30 PPG and come by it naturally through the natural flow of the game, you realize this right? Watch some classic hoops. Jordan is for the most part playing beautiful basketball within the Chicago offense.

[97 bulls]

A weak argument that I pay no mind and no one thinks is strong

Otoh, HoopsNY posted the actual numbers... Pippen was able to play over his head 24% of the time (22-28 ppg), which allowed MJ to shoot less than 20 times

So MJ would shoot less when teammates had it going - that's what any high IQ player does... It's called basketball.. And when he did score, it was sufficiently off-ball to maintain good chemistry and fits.. This is also high IQ

And unlike MJ, guys like Lebron and Magic actually had teammates that averaged 22-28 and more, yet they only won 50-60 games a year - whereas Jordan's win rate was 80 (95%) when he had their help

Bro. He's not gonna shoot less regardless because he wanted to score over 30 a game. How are you missing this?

[97 bulls]

Jordan could still set out to accomplish his goal of 30 PPG and come by it naturally through the natural flow of the game, you realize this right? Watch some classic hoops. Jordan is for the most part playing beautiful basketball within the Chicago offense.

Lol. I'm 48 years old. I remember those games.

I just went back and watched game 6 of the 93 NBA Finals. My overall point stands. Jordan scored all but 3 of the Bulls points in the 4th, but he took almost all of the shots. And by my count, he was 4-11. Pippen took 2 shots, and I believe Cartwright took one. It was their defense that carried them through.

For the life of me, I don't see why we're speculating here when the man (Jordan) actually stated that he wanted to score 30 a night. SMH. Why am I supposed to believe what a troll like 3ball says over what Jordan himself said?

You implying that the Bulls needed Jordan to score 30 a night to win (cuz that's exactly what you're doing in a passive aggressive way), is totally contrary to what the data shows. Especially when 94 and even 95 are factored in.

Whats great is that he did it efficiently and effectively in that the Bulls were Uber successful.