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  1. #31
    Lol RRR3's Avatar
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    Default Re: jordon extremist alts' case for jordon being GOAT: Jack of all trades, Master of

    Quote Originally Posted by dankok8 View Post
    I didn't say no chance. He was never clearly outplayed. Those were my words.
    How was he not clearly outplayed by Bird in that series? The efficiency difference is mountainous (66.5% TS to 52.9%) so I’m not giving MJ credit for chucking up
    more shots and Bird almost averaged a triple double and swept him. Don’t you claim Durant outplayed LeBron in 2018? Lol be consistent. I don’t know why you think it’s a big deal if he got outplayed anyways everyone has been. It’s only a big deal if you underperform.
    Last edited by RRR3; 08-13-2022 at 02:04 AM.

  2. #32
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    Default Re: jordon extremist alts' case for jordon being GOAT: Jack of all trades, Master of

    This is kind of a dumb argument because Jordan does have several of the statisical components you want to see in a GOAT.

    For example Wayne Gretzky is universally thought of as hockey GOAT, non-hockey fans nod their head when you say that.

    Wayne Gretzky has 10 scoring titles (the most ever in hockey) and the highest PPG in NHL history.

    Michael Jordan has 10 scoring titles (the most ever in basketball) and the highest PPG in NBA history, regular season and playoffs.

    LeBron has 1 whopping scoring title period, what kind of GOAT in any sport only has 1 scoring title (home run title, most passing yards in a season, whatever).

    As the no.1 option, Jordan also has 6 titles, no one else has more than 5 (sorry Kareem, but Magic was the man by the Lakers later titles, Russell was sometimes the 3rd or 4th option on the Celtics offence).

    Do people actually spend more than 30 ****ing seconds thinking about making a topic here? Brain dead.

    Overall points is also just a measure of longevity, the NBA's top scorer is judged statistically by PPG, and Jordan is the highest ever. Otherwise Karl Malone should be like a top 4-5 player, he has the 3rd most points in NBA history but virtually no one has Karl Malone in their top 10.
    Last edited by Soundwave; 08-13-2022 at 02:28 AM.

  3. #33
    College superstar TheGoatest's Avatar
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    Default Re: jordon extremist alts' case for jordon being GOAT: Jack of all trades, Master of

    @ the desperation and the mental gymnastics

    Wayne Gretzky (the most consensus GOAT in a team sport) is waaaay more like LeBron than like jordon.

    Gretzky has 4 titles, the same amount LeBron has.

    A player who has won the NHL MVP while playing in Gretzky's own era (Bryan Trottier) has 6 titles (2 more than Gretzky), yet no one would dream of ever calling him better than Gretzky.

    Gretzky's "10 scoring titles" don't refer to "goal scoring titles", which is the equivalent of basketball scoring titles. Gretzky has 5 top goal scorer titles.
    Alex Ovechkin has 9 goal scoring titles (so far), yet just like Trottier no one would ever dream of calling him better than Gretzky.
    Gretzky's 10 scoring titles refer to "goals + assists", aka hockey point titles.
    If we convert that to basketball:

    LeBron's career ppg = 27.1 ppg
    LeBron's career apg = 7.4 apg
    LeBron's career "hockey points" per game = 41.9 hppg (assuming all of his assists were 2 pointers, which they obviously weren't, and he has way more assists on 3 pointers than jordon)

    jordon's career ppg = 30.1 ppg
    jordon's career apg = 5.3 apg
    jordon's career "hockey points" per game = 40.7 hppg

    And keep in mind LeBron has played 1366 career games, compared to jordon's 1072, so not only is his average higher, but sustained over way more career games played.
    Way to set yourself up for a complete FAIL.

  4. #34
    College superstar Baller789's Avatar
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    Default Re: jordon extremist alts' case for jordon being GOAT: Jack of all trades, Master of

    Quote Originally Posted by TheGoatest View Post
    @ the desperation and the mental gymnastics

    Wayne Gretzky (the most consensus GOAT in a team sport) is waaaay more like LeBron than like jordon.

    Gretzky has 4 titles, the same amount LeBron has.

    A player who has won the NHL MVP while playing in Gretzky's own era (Bryan Trottier) has 6 titles (2 more than Gretzky), yet no one would dream of ever calling him better than Gretzky.

    Gretzky's "10 scoring titles" don't refer to "goal scoring titles", which is the equivalent of basketball scoring titles. Gretzky has 5 top goal scorer titles.
    Alex Ovechkin has 9 goal scoring titles (so far), yet just like Trottier no one would ever dream of calling him better than Gretzky.
    Gretzky's 10 scoring titles refer to "goals + assists", aka hockey point titles.
    If we convert that to basketball:

    LeBron's career ppg = 27.1 ppg
    LeBron's career apg = 7.4 apg
    LeBron's career "hockey points" per game = 41.9 hppg (assuming all of his assists were 2 pointers, which they obviously weren't, and he has way more assists on 3 pointers than jordon)

    jordon's career ppg = 30.1 ppg
    jordon's career apg = 5.3 apg
    jordon's career "hockey points" per game = 40.7 hppg

    And keep in mind LeBron has played 1366 career games, compared to jordon's 1072, so not only is his average higher, but sustained over way more career games played.
    Way to set yourself up for a complete FAIL.
    Why doesnt Lebron have more award accomplishments if he played more games?

  5. #35
    College star dankok8's Avatar
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    Default Re: jordon extremist alts' case for jordon being GOAT: Jack of all trades, Master of

    Quote Originally Posted by RRR3 View Post
    How was he not clearly outplayed by Bird in that series? The efficiency difference is mountainous (66.5% TS to 52.9%) so I’m not giving MJ credit for chucking up
    more shots and Bird almost averaged a triple double and swept him. Don’t you claim Durant outplayed LeBron in 2018? Lol be consistent. I don’t know why you think it’s a big deal if he got outplayed anyways everyone has been. It’s only a big deal if you underperform.
    He wasn't clearly outplayed by Bird in 1987. Jordan was better than Bird in both Game 1 and Game 2 and then Bird was better in Game 3.

    People never seeing Jordan get clearly outplayed is a big part of the reason why he's the GOAT. Are you really disputing that he was more dominant in his prime compared to Lebron? It's common knowledge no matter which side of the argument you're on.

  6. #36
    Lol RRR3's Avatar
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    Default Re: jordon extremist alts' case for jordon being GOAT: Jack of all trades, Master of

    Quote Originally Posted by dankok8 View Post
    He wasn't clearly outplayed by Bird in 1987. Jordan was better than Bird in both Game 1 and Game 2 and then Bird was better in Game 3.

    People never seeing Jordan get clearly outplayed is a big part of the reason why he's the GOAT. Are you really disputing that he was more dominant in his prime compared to Lebron? It's common knowledge no matter which side of the argument you're on.
    That’s not how it works. Jordan was godawful in game 3 while Bird was great throughout. I’m not disputing anything just pointing out inconsistencies. Jordan being more dominant than LeBron isn’t really common knowledge the way you’d like it to be anymore I hate to break it to you.

  7. #37
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    Default Re: jordon extremist alts' case for jordon being GOAT: Jack of all trades, Master of

    Quote Originally Posted by TheGoatest View Post
    @ the desperation and the mental gymnastics

    Wayne Gretzky (the most consensus GOAT in a team sport) is waaaay more like LeBron than like jordon.

    Gretzky has 4 titles, the same amount LeBron has.

    A player who has won the NHL MVP while playing in Gretzky's own era (Bryan Trottier) has 6 titles (2 more than Gretzky), yet no one would dream of ever calling him better than Gretzky.

    Gretzky's "10 scoring titles" don't refer to "goal scoring titles", which is the equivalent of basketball scoring titles. Gretzky has 5 top goal scorer titles.
    Alex Ovechkin has 9 goal scoring titles (so far), yet just like Trottier no one would ever dream of calling him better than Gretzky.
    Gretzky's 10 scoring titles refer to "goals + assists", aka hockey point titles.
    If we convert that to basketball:

    LeBron's career ppg = 27.1 ppg
    LeBron's career apg = 7.4 apg
    LeBron's career "hockey points" per game = 41.9 hppg (assuming all of his assists were 2 pointers, which they obviously weren't, and he has way more assists on 3 pointers than jordon)

    jordon's career ppg = 30.1 ppg
    jordon's career apg = 5.3 apg
    jordon's career "hockey points" per game = 40.7 hppg

    And keep in mind LeBron has played 1366 career games, compared to jordon's 1072, so not only is his average higher, but sustained over way more career games played.
    Way to set yourself up for a complete FAIL.
    You do realize that LeBron's PPG and APG are probably going to fall in the next 3-4 seasons that he plays right? That number is not going to be the one he retires with it will likely drop below 40.7 hppg. Not that most sports fans are even going to give a shit about the metric you outlined, but OK lets go with it, most sports fans will only see "10 scoring titles for Gretzky, 10 scoring titles for Jordan".

    Wayne Gretzky won the Rocket Ricard trophy (most goals) 5 times too, even if you equate NHL goals to NBA points only, why does LeBron only have 1 equivalent to that?

    If Trottier had 10 Art Ross trophies and was the no.1 player on the Islanders, sure there would be lots of people saying he's better than Gretzky. The offensive catalyst for the Islanders dynasty was Mike Bossy, not Trottier. The last two Cups Trottier won with Pittsburgh he was a shell of the player he used to be, just a role player at that point.

    The fact is neither in hockey or basketball is there 1 player who has 6 championships as the no.1 offensive option.

    Not Gretzky, not Kareem, not Russell, not Wilt, not Lemieux, not Bossy, not Messier, not Crosby, and not LeBron either. Most guys get to 4 and then hit a brick wall. No shame in having 4, but it just then tells you have incredible it is to have 6.
    Last edited by Soundwave; 08-13-2022 at 02:06 PM.

  8. #38
    College star dankok8's Avatar
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    Default Re: jordon extremist alts' case for jordon being GOAT: Jack of all trades, Master of

    Quote Originally Posted by RRR3 View Post
    That’s not how it works. Jordan was godawful in game 3 while Bird was great throughout. I’m not disputing anything just pointing out inconsistencies. Jordan being more dominant than LeBron isn’t really common knowledge the way you’d like it to be anymore I hate to break it to you.
    Bird had 17 points in Game 1, MJ had 35 and on great efficiency. Bird had 29 in Game 2, MJ had 42 on great efficiency. Bird only outplayed him in Game 3. Don't be biased man.

    Most people consider peak Jordan to have been a better player than peak Lebron. Ben Taylor did a more thorough analysis than anyone. Jordan has better boxscore stats (by a solid margin), better advanced stats (by a smidge), and better scalability (by a solid margin). Most people on his patreon are extremely knowledgeable about the game and something like 70% of them had Jordan as the best peak. About 15% had Lebron and then the rest had mostly Shaq or someone else. There isn't really much objective data to justify having Lebron over Jordan as a basketball player while there is a lot to justify Jordan over Lebron.

    Now if you go for career value then you can certainly argue Lebron because of his edge in longevity.

  9. #39
    Lol RRR3's Avatar
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    Default Re: jordon extremist alts' case for jordon being GOAT: Jack of all trades, Master of

    Quote Originally Posted by dankok8 View Post
    Bird had 17 points in Game 1, MJ had 35 and on great efficiency. Bird had 29 in Game 2, MJ had 42 on great efficiency. Bird only outplayed him in Game 3. Don't be biased man.

    Most people consider peak Jordan to have been a better player than peak Lebron. Ben Taylor did a more thorough analysis than anyone. Jordan has better boxscore stats (by a solid margin), better advanced stats (by a smidge), and better scalability (by a solid margin). Most people on his patreon are extremely knowledgeable about the game and something like 70% of them had Jordan as the best peak. About 15% had Lebron and then the rest had mostly Shaq or someone else. There isn't really much objective data to justify having Lebron over Jordan as a basketball player while there is a lot to justify Jordan over Lebron.

    Now if you go for career value then you can certainly argue Lebron because of his edge in longevity.
    I have Jordan ranked first it’s hilarious how insecure you are.

  10. #40
    harden fan outofstomach's Avatar
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    Default Re: jordon extremist alts' case for jordon being GOAT: Jack of all trades, Master of

    Quote Originally Posted by Soundwave View Post
    This is kind of a dumb argument because Jordan does have several of the statisical components you want to see in a GOAT.

    For example Wayne Gretzky is universally thought of as hockey GOAT, non-hockey fans nod their head when you say that.

    Wayne Gretzky has 10 scoring titles (the most ever in hockey) and the highest PPG in NHL history.

    Michael Jordan has 10 scoring titles (the most ever in basketball) and the highest PPG in NBA history, regular season and playoffs.

    LeBron has 1 whopping scoring title period, what kind of GOAT in any sport only has 1 scoring title (home run title, most passing yards in a season, whatever).

    As the no.1 option, Jordan also has 6 titles, no one else has more than 5 (sorry Kareem, but Magic was the man by the Lakers later titles, Russell was sometimes the 3rd or 4th option on the Celtics offence).

    Do people actually spend more than 30 ****ing seconds thinking about making a topic here? Brain dead.

    Overall points is also just a measure of longevity, the NBA's top scorer is judged statistically by PPG, and Jordan is the highest ever. Otherwise Karl Malone should be like a top 4-5 player, he has the 3rd most points in NBA history but virtually no one has Karl Malone in their top 10.
    LEBRON HAS 1 SCORING TITLE?

  11. #41
    College star dankok8's Avatar
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    Default Re: jordon extremist alts' case for jordon being GOAT: Jack of all trades, Master of

    Quote Originally Posted by RRR3 View Post
    I have Jordan ranked first it’s hilarious how insecure you are.
    How the **** am I insecure? You made a point and I answered you.

    Geez I thought you're one of the good posters here.

  12. #42
    Good college starter
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    Default Re: jordon extremist alts' case for jordon being GOAT: Jack of all trades, Master of

    Most people view Jordan as the Goat because he is a mixture of Russell and Wilt.


    Wilt has the stats and individual dominance but lacks the rings.


    Russell has the rings but lacks the stats and individual dominance on both sides of the court.


    As for Jordan, he has the stats and individual dominance to go along with winning the most rings as the number one option in NBA history which makes him the Goat in most people's eyes.

  13. #43
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    Default Re: jordon extremist alts' case for jordon being GOAT: Jack of all trades, Master of

    I will say this if not for Russell there wouldn't be a goat debate nowadays.

    As without Russell.

    Chamberlain would be viewed as the undisputed god-like figure in Basketball history even over Jordan.

    He would have retired as the leader in points, points per game, rebounds, and rebounds per game (eta - by huge margins).

    He would have been considered the best defensive player of all time.

    He most likely would have between 7 and 9 rings and 6 MVPs.


    The game would have been divided into pre-Wilt and post-Wilt eras.

    The fact that Russell and his teams were able to prevent this from happening is a fairly compelling argument for Russell's greatness and his GOAT case.


    As Imagine if Duncan's Spurs kept the Lakers to 1 championship or Magic kept Bird to just one ring in the 1980s!

  14. #44
    Decent college freshman light's Avatar
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    Default Re: jordon extremist alts' case for jordon being GOAT: Jack of all trades, Master of

    Jordan's case relies entirely on his accomplishments with Scottie Pippen and Phil Jackson. Michael Jordan has no case without Scottie Pippen and Phil Jackson.

    Remove the efforts of Pippen and Jackson and what does Michael Jordan have? No rings. A few MVPs. A bunch of scoring titles. Then where would he rank all-time? It wouldn't be in the top 5.

  15. #45
    NBA All-star SATAN's Avatar
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    Default Re: jordon extremist alts' case for jordon being GOAT: Jack of all trades, Master of

    Quote Originally Posted by TheMan View Post
    BTW, as an MJ stan, I can readily admit LeBron has had the better longevity, that really isn't up for debate.. also not up for debate and if all you Bran stans are being honest, you have to admit MJ had the better peak and dominated his era thoroughly, something LeBron never accomplished.

    tl:dr MJ accomplished more in less time (better peak), LeBron played at a higher level in more years (better longevity)...as one of MJ fans senior members here, this is my olive branch to the LeBran Fam, take it or leave it but I warn you, it will get very messy if you leave my outstretched hand unshaken.
    LeBron would easily average 40/10/10 against those mechanics and grocery baggers.

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