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  1. #166
    NBA Legend and Hall of Famer 1987_Lakers's Avatar
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    Default Re: NBA 75 Ultimate Draft | InsideHoops version

    I admittedly don't know THAT much about some 70's players, I got curious about Hayes & Unseld since they were just drafted here and here is what one poster from another site said when comparing both players..

    Quote Originally Posted by Random poster View Post
    Tough, tough question. A lot of this from a post I wrote years ago ... and, in general, Iíd defer to penbeast on questions regarding the Bullets/Wizards.

    I think Hayes is better ... but itís hard to tell because a chunk of what made Elvin great was a byproduct of having Wes Unseld as a teammate. Hayes is a great player, but isn't as good as his numbers. And he was incredibly lucky to play alongside Wes Unseld--and vice versa. (Unseld is better than his numbers.) The two men were polar opposites, but extraordinarily complementary. Elvin was a good sized, quick player that excelled on weak side D, who loved to shoot, hated to pass, was inclined to take more credit for success than he deserved, tended to whine and sulk and blame others for failure, and was disliked by teammates and virtually everyone else in the league. Unseld was a short, wide player with ridiculously long arms that excelled as a man defender and at holding his position, hated to shoot, loved to pass, kept his mouth shut and did his job, and was almost universally liked and respected. They were the best thing to ever happen to each other.

    I personally think Unseld helped Hayes more than vice versa, especially on D. Like I said, Hayes was a very good weak side defender. But he was helped immeasurably by having a rock like Unseld inside. When low post opponents had to go around Wes to try and shoot, Hayes was there. The main reason Elvin Hayes averaged 2.2 blocks a game with the Bullets was because of Wes Unseld. Hayes made of a couple of All-D teams. But, IMO, Wes was a (much) better defender. Proof? Elvin's block numbers barely varied while he was with the Bullets. When he went to Houston, to play alongside Moses, Moses couldn't man up the way Wes hadóhe had a great motor (more so on the boards), but he simply couldn't body up to guys like Unseld did. That extra fraction of a second saved by getting through Moses instead of Unseld, the greater number of plays where Moses got backed down as opposed to Wes...those made a big difference in the amount of opportunities Hayes had for weak side defensive help and blocks. Hayes had just come off his eighth consecutive season of averaging more than 2 blocks a game and was supposedly more focused on D (since the Rockets already had their low post scoring machine). Hayes' block numbers went down by 40% playing alongside Moses. Part of that is due to ageóbut that's a humungous drop in one year. And I think that drop would have happened with 95% of other Cs in the league.

    They were even more different in temperament and personality. Alex Hannum, who was a pretty good guy and coach, said Hayes was "the most despicable person I've ever met in sports.Ē Thatís coming from a guy who spent a lifetime in basketball. After the Bullets won a title, Hannum said,

    ďHayes was exactly the kind of player I did not want. He's a front-runner. Put him in a situation where there's tension and he does not face it with courage. Give him a challenge and he'll always find some excuse to fold. I still believe it. Even last year, the Bullets won despite him rather than because of him."


    When Tex Winter coached Hayes, he asked to Hayes share the ball more. We all know Winter was a ball movement coach. Hayes replied, ďIím an all-star. Donít expect me to pass. Itís like asking Babe Ruth to bunt.Ē Winter's response was

    ďI found him so lacking in fundamentals. It's true that I tried to mold him into my concept of what a post man should be, but I could not get any response from him and that caused all sorts of problems on the club. He knew he was more valuable than I was and there was just no way I could build a young club around him."

    Hayes's negative intangibles are, IMO, huge. They were largely kept in check by Unseld. Unseld was a fairly quiet, hard working guy that led by example and was hugely respected by opposing players and coaches. Which meant nothing to Elvin, who attacked him anyway even though Unseld was his teammate. Think about that for a second. If Hayes had played next to, say, Shaq, he would've bagged on Shaq every time the the big guy's conditioning wasn't good, or he made a mistake. And he'd take more credit than he would have for any victory. How do you think that would have worked out? And it's not just Shaq. Leaving out that Unseld's style of play was a perfect compliment to Hayes's...how many players today would have not engaged in a war of words and chosen to lead by example the way Wes did? Hayes frequently ripped on Unseld's lack of scoring. Unseld took the high road.

    Hayes was a very slightly better player. I just donít think the difference is as large as the numbers indicate, though; some of it is longetivity. But, in the end, he was a very good rebounder, a very good defender, and a very good (albeit inefficient) scorer that was an absolute iron man. He would get you 22 and 12 and two plus blocks pretty much every night, play 40 minutes a game, and play every game. That's the truth, and itís very slightly better than Wes, who excelled at rebounding, man D, hard screens, and passing. Less glamorous and for a shorter time with more missed games. Among players who could or did average 22 and 12 and two plus blocks while playing 40 mpg for 82 games, Hayes is at or near the bottom of the list. That doesn't make him bad by any stretch of the imaginationóbut IMO, it makes him very slightly more valuable than Wes, even if it shows that Elvin could/should have been better.
    Very insightful stuff. I already knew alot of this stuff about Hayes, but didn't really know Unseld was such a good low post man defender.
    Last edited by 1987_Lakers; 10-05-2022 at 09:04 PM.

  2. #167
    NO KLAY, NO PLAY AlternativeAcc.'s Avatar
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    Default Re: NBA 75 Ultimate Draft | InsideHoops version

    I'm not putting any stock in these last few picks lol.

    Starters playing 48mins baby!

  3. #168
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    Default Re: NBA 75 Ultimate Draft | InsideHoops version

    Unseld, along with Bird, is probably the best outlet passer in league history.

  4. #169
    NBA Legend and Hall of Famer 1987_Lakers's Avatar
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    Default Re: NBA 75 Ultimate Draft | InsideHoops version

    Quote Originally Posted by Champ View Post
    Unseld, along with Bird, is probably the best outlet passer in league history.
    Kevin Love, another great outlet passer has the middle name "Wesley" he was named after Wes Unseld. Kevin Love's dad and Unseld were teammates and good friends.

  5. #170
    I usually hit open layups Hakeem Olajuwon's Avatar
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    Default Re: NBA 75 Ultimate Draft | InsideHoops version

    iamgine - Jordan, Jokic, Robinson, Miller, Rodman, Isiah Thomas, Drexler, Cowens, McAdoo

    Champ - Magic, Wilt, Russell, AI, Barkley, Dominique Wilkins, McHale, Sam Jones, Tiny

    John8204 - LeBron, Kobe, Doncic, Erving, Moses Malone, Walt Frazier, Thurmond, Maravich

    AlternativeAcc. - Bird, Giannis, Klay, AD, Stockton, Ewing, Barry, Westbrook, Hayes

    SouBeachTalents - Curry, Kareem, Dirk, McGrady, Pierce, Oscar Robertson, Walton, Worthy, Jerry Lucas

    Manny98 - Durant, Shaq, Pippen, Harden, Payton, Lillard, Melo, Reed, Dave DeBusschere

    1987_Lakers - Hakeem, Garnett, West, CP3, Havlicek, Nash, Baylor, Pettit, Hal Greer, Wes Unseld

    Hakeem Olajuwon - Tim Duncan, Kawhi Leonard, Dwyane Wade, Ray Allen, Jason Kidd, Karl Malone, Robert Parish, George Gervin, Bob Cousy, Dolph Schayes


    I believe the remaining players in the NBA 75 pool are:
    Paul Arizin
    Dave Bing
    Billy Cunningham
    Earl Monroe
    Bill Sharman
    Lenny Wilkens

  6. #171
    Goatbrook SouBeachTalents's Avatar
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    Default Re: NBA 75 Ultimate Draft | InsideHoops version

    Dave Bing

  7. #172
    NO KLAY, NO PLAY AlternativeAcc.'s Avatar
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    Default Re: NBA 75 Ultimate Draft | InsideHoops version

    Bill Sharman. Best shooter of the 50s!

  8. #173
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    Default Re: NBA 75 Ultimate Draft | InsideHoops version

    PG - Doncic, Frazier
    SG - Kobe, Maravich
    SF - Erving, Paul Arizin
    PF - LeBron, Mikan
    C - M. Malone, Thurmond

    I was debating between George Mikan and Paul Arizin and I got both...for those that don't know about Paul Arizin he made nearly as many foul shots as field goals..the founder of the jump shot and a top 30 PPG player.

    Wilt's 100 point game...facilitated by Arizin.

  9. #174
    Nets Dynasty Manny98's Avatar
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    Default Re: NBA 75 Ultimate Draft | InsideHoops version

    Earl Monroe

    Final team

    PG - Payton | Lillard
    SG - Harden | Monroe
    SF - Pippen | DeBusschere
    PF - KD | Melo
    C - Shaq | Reed

    KD,Shaq and Harden is basically unstoppable on offense with Pippen and Payton locking up the opposing teams best player, then got Lillard bombing down 3s off the bench

    Pretty happy with my team despite getting screwed over in the beginning
    Last edited by Manny98; 10-06-2022 at 01:09 PM.

  10. #175
    NBA Legend and Hall of Famer 1987_Lakers's Avatar
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    Default Re: NBA 75 Ultimate Draft | InsideHoops version

    Quote Originally Posted by Manny98 View Post
    Earl Monroe

    Final team

    PG - Payton | Lillard
    SG - Harden | Monroe
    SF - Pippen | DeBusschere
    PF - KD | Melo
    C - Shaq | Reed

    KD,Shaq and Harden is basically unstoppable on offense with Pippen and Payton locking up the opposing teams best player, then got Lillard bombing down 3s off the bench

    Pretty happy with my team despite getting screwed over in the beginning
    Thanks for drafting GP and passing up on Nash who I grabbed. Lol

    In your situation I would have drafted Nash then maybe drafted Fraizer a round or 2 later. GP and Frazier basically give you the same value. Good offense and elite defense.

  11. #176
    Nets Dynasty Manny98's Avatar
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    Default Re: NBA 75 Ultimate Draft | InsideHoops version

    Quote Originally Posted by 1987_Lakers View Post
    Thanks for drafting GP and passing up on Nash who I grabbed. Lol

    In your situation I would have drafted Nash then maybe drafted Fraizer a round or 2 later. GP and Frazier basically give you the same value. Good offense and elite defense.
    I passed up Nash because I wanted a lockdown defender

    I've got all the offense I need with the combination of Harden,KD and Shaq

  12. #177
    Local High School Star
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    Default Re: NBA 75 Ultimate Draft | InsideHoops version

    Quote Originally Posted by 1987_Lakers View Post
    Thanks for drafting GP and passing up on Nash who I grabbed. Lol

    In your situation I would have drafted Nash then maybe drafted Fraizer a round or 2 later. GP and Frazier basically give you the same value. Good offense and elite defense.
    You mean like having

    PG - Walt Frazier (7X All Defense) (6X All-NBA 1/2)
    SG - Kobe Bryant (9X All Defense) (15X All-NBA 1/2/3)
    SF - Lebron James (6X All Defense) (18X All-NBA 1/2/3)
    PF - Moses Malone (2X All Defense) (8X All-NBA 1/2)
    C - Nate Thurmond (5X All Defense)

  13. #178
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    Default Re: NBA 75 Ultimate Draft | InsideHoops version

    Looks like we went slightly out of order, but if I'm not mistaken, I'm up.

    I need a tough, rebounding forward to round out my second team, so Billy "The Kangaroo Kid" Cunningham it is. Won a title with Wilt, and had a surprisingly good PER for his era. Pretty efficent, too, and ended being a great coach and motivator. I very happy to have him as my 10th and final pick.

  14. #179
    NBA Legend and Hall of Famer 1987_Lakers's Avatar
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    Default Re: NBA 75 Ultimate Draft | InsideHoops version

    That concludes the draft. Anyone want me to make a realgm poll later on today just for fun?

  15. #180
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    Default Re: NBA 75 Ultimate Draft | InsideHoops version

    Before putting our teams up to a forum vote, I think it would be nice if we could each take a paragraph or so to summarize our lineups/rotations, along with a "pitch" on why we think our team deserves consideration.

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