Players that lack expert jumpshot to shoot over defenses NEED SPACING to drive

[3ba11]

So Mo didn't actually improve the Cavs in any meaningful sense then.

Of course he did - Mo gave Lebron the spacing his stiff-arm needs to be MVP-caliber

Lebron infact isn't MVP-caliber without elite spacing, while MJ was MVP with rookie Pippen's 7 ppg off the bench - again, Jordan could shoot over defenses and didn't need wide driving lanes to be MVP like Lebron

88' Jordan had that truly dominant MVP season while carrying bums on a bad team, while Lebron needed all-star Mo and elire spacing to get his rocks off

it's a weakness compared to Bird, Curry MJ or Kobe who provide spacing themselves as expert jumpshooters

[┌∩┐(﹒︠益﹒︡)┌∩┐]

Jews don’t celebrate Christmas buddy. Meltdown.

You spent Yom Kippur on ish

[3ba11]

So Mo didn't actually improve the Cavs in any meaningful sense then.

Mo didn't play great in the playoffs, but Lebron should still be able to win with a top defense and bed-wetting offense from the sidekick because MJ did (and you guys say Lebron is on MJ's level).

But since Lebron can't beat top teams with bed-wetting sidekicks, we know that he infact isn't on MJ's level for all the reasons mentioned previously (insufficient brand of ball at carry-job volume so he needs all-time scoring help, aka can't beat #4 SRS Magic with 18 on 38% from Mo.. which is actually solid for Pippen).

And people say Lebron carried teams but the historical record shows that he was only winning 45-50 games through his 5th healthy season (08') despite having the East all-star, top 5 defenses and a 22/5/5 all-defender acquisition....

45-50 wins in your 3rd to 5th healthy seasons with these veterans is hardly "carrying".. So yeah, Mo improved the Cavs a ton and took them to the next level of LEAGUE FAVORITE

[Phoenix]

Of course he did - Mo gave Lebron the spacing his stiff-arm needs to be MVP-caliber

In terms of how far the team actually progressed, not really. They had already been to the finals and 2nd round before Mo arrived. The two years he was there they got to the conference finals and then 2nd round. They could have done that without Mo.

[3ba11]

In terms of how far the team actually progressed, not really. They had already been to the finals and 2nd round before Mo arrived. The two years he was there they got to the conference finals and then 2nd round. They could have done that without Mo.

The 2006-2008 Cavs were pedestrian teams that won 45-50 games and lost in the 2nd Round - this was after taking 3 long years to make the 06' Playoffs with the East all-star center and a 22/5/5 all-defender acquisiition.

That's hardly an all-time example "carrying"

in b4 you point out that these pedestrian Cavs had a fluke in 07', which shows that Lebron's carry-job ability compares to AI, Kidd, or Dwight (although Dwight and AI actually won games in the Finals off Shaq and Kobe, while Lebron couldn't take a game off Duncan because he wet the bed with worst-ever performance).

This simply isn't a great record of "carrying" before Mo arrived - Mo took the Cavs from this pedestrian level to 66-win league favorites (including a top 5 offense and defense), while the effectiveness of Lebron's drives improved to MVP-caliber - that's an entirely different level than 06-08'... Mo's spacing was clearly the difference

Btw, I know you'll be least likely to agree with the following but it's true - the Cavs' defense improved with Mo's arrival because their defensive requirements were less - they were facing worn-down opponents from defending the Cavs' vastly improved offense (winning the attrition battle more often).

[Phoenix]

The 2006-2008 Cavs were pedestrian teams that won 45-50 games and lost in the 2nd Round - this was after taking 3 long years to make the 06' Playoffs with the East all-star center and a 22/5/5 all-defender acquisiition.

That's hardly an all-time example "carrying"

in b4 you point out that these pedestrian Cavs had a fluke in 07', which shows that Lebron's carry-job ability compares to AI, Kidd, or Dwight (although Dwight and AI actually won games in the Finals off Shaq and Kobe, while Lebron couldn't take a game off Duncan because he wet the bed with worst-ever performance).

This simply isn't a great record of "carrying" before Mo arrived - Mo took the Cavs from this pedestrian level to 66-win league favorites (including a top 5 offense and defense), while the effectiveness of Lebron's drives improved to MVP-caliber - that's an entirely different level than 06-08'... Mo's spacing was clearly the difference

Btw, I know you'll be least likely to agree with the following but it's true - the Cavs' defense improved with Mo's arrival because their defensive requirements were less - they were facing worn-down opponents from defending the Cavs' vastly improved offense (winning the attrition battle more often).

I didn't say anything about an all-time carry. You're overcomplicating it. 2007 and 2008...finals and 2nd round. 2009 and 2010....conference finals and 2nd round. Unless the Cavs ended up making it further when it counted( the playoffs) with Mo, then it doesn't matter that the season record improved. You're the same person who argues that season record doesn't matter when people bring up the 55 win 94 Bulls. The same principle applies here: the Cavs didn't do anything with Mo that they hadn't already done without him. Lebron was also a better player in 2009 and 2010 then he was in 2007 and 2008, so Mo's 'improvement' to the roster was some regular season wins that meant sweet fukk all when the playoffs rolled around.

[WhiteKyrie]

This is a legitimate thread so f*ck off loser and go stalk someone else you weirdo

Everyone remembers that you spent Christmas looking up family and you probably spent Thanksgiving adding more soil to the burials on your back yard... Sicko

[3ba11]

I didn't say anything about an all-time carry. You're overcomplicating it. 2007 and 2008...finals and 2nd round. 2009 and 2010....conference finals and 2nd round. Unless the Cavs ended up making it further when it counted( the playoffs) with Mo, then it doesn't matter that the season record improved. You're the same person who argues that season record doesn't matter when people bring up the 55 win 94 Bulls. The same principle applies here: the Cavs didn't do anything with Mo that they hadn't already done without him. Lebron was also a better player in 2009 and 2010 then he was in 2007 and 2008, so Mo's 'improvement' to the roster was some regular season wins that meant sweet fukk all when the playoffs rolled around.

The Cavs did many new things with Mo:

1) underdogs to league favorite

2) top 20 to top 5 on offense and defense

3) #16 to #1 SRS

4) Lebron became MVP-caliber (needs elite spacing to be MVP-caliber)

For Lebron to reach MVP-caliber, he needed an all-star teammate to open things up for him.

Otoh, MJ won MVP in 1988 with a bum cast and no spacing..

Unlike Lebron, expert jumpshooters like MJ can shoot over defenses and therefore don't need spacing/wide driving lanes...

Ultimately, Lebron could never win 66 games with a lane-clogger like Pippen or without an elite-shooting team - do you agree with this?.. He won with Wade but that was with the best 3-point shooting in the league and HOF Bosh/Allen playing spot-up roles.

[ShawkFactory]

For Lebron to reach MVP-caliber, he needed an all-star teammate to open things up for him..

He was the scoring champion the year before that...

Also led the NBA in PER, BPM, and VORP (I've seen you use the statistics quite a bit).

[3ba11]

He was the scoring champion the year before that...

The historical record shows that Lebron was below Kobe, CP3 and KG for MVP in 2008

He didn't reach MVP-caliber until Mo's spacing arrived to improve the effectiveness of his drives (which he relies on)

Specifically, Lebron's efficiency improved to elite levels for the first time (near 60 TS and over 120 ORtg)

It's funny because Lebron can only win 66 with elite spacing like Mo, and couldn't win with a lane-clogger like Pippen

[Red Pill Sports]

The historical record shows that Lebron was below Kobe, CP3 and KG for MVP in 2008

He didn't reach MVP-caliber until Mo's spacing arrived to improve the effectiveness of his drives (which he relies on)

Specifically, Lebron's efficiency improved to elite levels for the first time (near 60 TS and over 120 ORtg)

It's funny because Lebron can only win 66 with elite spacing like Mo, and couldn't win with a lane-clogger like Pippen

This is why I'm always dismissive of the "He never had a teammate like Pippen!" Yeah, he wouldn't have wanted Pippen for precisely this reason. Not to mention Pippen needed to be the main ball handler in order to develop and knowing Bron's obsession with inflating his stats, we know that ain't happening.

[ShawkFactory]

The historical record shows that Lebron was below Kobe, CP3 and KG for MVP in 2008

Bitch please

[Hey Yo]

The Cavs did many new things with Mo:

1) underdogs to league favorite

2) top 20 to top 5 on offense and defense

3) #16 to #1 SRS

4) Lebron became MVP-caliber (needs elite spacing to be MVP-caliber)

For Lebron to reach MVP-caliber, he needed an all-star teammate to open things up for him.

Otoh, MJ won MVP in 1988 with a bum cast and no spacing..

Unlike Lebron, expert jumpshooters like MJ can shoot over defenses and therefore don't need spacing/wide driving lanes...

Ultimately, Lebron could never win 66 games with a lane-clogger like Pippen or without an elite-shooting team - do you agree with this?.. He won with Wade but that was with the best 3-point shooting in the league and HOF Bosh/Allen playing spot-up roles.

1. Cleveland was ranked 6th as preseason favorites.

More lies from you as usual.

[3ba11]

This is why I'm always dismissive of the "He never had a teammate like Pippen!" Yeah, he wouldn't have wanted Pippen for precisely this reason. Not to mention Pippen needed to be the main ball handler in order to develop and knowing Bron's obsession with inflating his stats, we know that ain't happening.

Expert jumpshooters like MJ and Curry put the ball in teammates' hands and then act as the goat assist target to bailout their young, ball-handling teammate if needed - that's how young ball-handlers like Pippen, Draymond, Ingram or Hughes develop..

Unfortunately, Lebron's skillset reduced Ingram and Hughes to stand-around roles, so their assists decreased alongside Lebron and they couldn't grow.

Ultimately, Lebron starts at forward but then becomes a 2nd point guard on the floor (2nd player with a point guard hold-time) - these 2 point guard lineups give teammates less hold-time and assists than they get in traditional 1 PG lineups, so the TEAM has low assists and a brand that loses on the championship level.

[3ba11]

1. Cleveland was ranked 6th as preseason favorites.

More lies from you as usual.

Cavs were the favorite heading into the playoffs over Kobe's Lakers:

https://www.thespread.com/nba-articl...-win-nba-title


So again, the Cavs were a pedestrian, 45-win underdog before Mo made them league favorites over Kobe's Lakers.

Accept the reality that Lebron's stiff arm is vastly improved WITH spacing, while expert jumpshooters like MJ and Kobe can win with lane-cloggers at sidekick because they can shoot over defenses