How would the GOAT list look like if you put everyone through the Bill Russell lens?

[iamgine]

Most haven't seen Bill Russell play even a single full game. Most don't know the context of his stats or championships. Most don't know the detail of basketball rules or life in the 60s. Most only have access to grainy black and white highlights that they don't even watch. But he won a gazillion championships so most figures lets just put him somewhere in the top 10.

What if we put every player in this lens, how would the GOAT list look like?

[hateraid]

Bill Russell already said Lebron was the greatest in his eyes. Big words when playing Wilt. Everything is subjective. Bill's eyes are different from Shaq. Dirk is different from Barkley. Zeke and Payton are different than Magic. Pipppen is different than Wade. I pick Magic being from Philly. The world will never agree

[John8204]

When I do my list I try and balance the eras so I don't have to worry about a Bill Russell lens. I look at generation and position and then weave the two together to try and make a more accurate list.

Bill is one of eight men I consider GOATs... (Mikan(50's), Wilt(60's), Bill (60's), KAJ (70's), Bird (80's), Magic (80's), Jordan (90's), Lebron (10's) which averages out to about 1 great every ten years or so.

For myself the more interesting discussion is not who is the greatest but rather who is great it's the guys in the 20's and 30's on all-time lists.

[Axe]

Bill Russell already said Lebron was the greatest in his eyes. Big words when playing Wilt. Everything is subjective. Bill's eyes are different from Shaq. Dirk is different from Barkley. Zeke and Payton are different than Magic. Pipppen is different than Wade. I pick Magic being from Philly. The world will never agree

Interesting.

[Full Court]

Most haven't seen Bill Russell play even a single full game. Most don't know the context of his stats or championships. Most don't know the detail of basketball rules or life in the 60s. Most only have access to grainy black and white highlights that they don't even watch. But he won a gazillion championships so most figures lets just put him somewhere in the top 10.

What if we put every player in this lens, how would the GOAT list look like?

The reason I have Russell ranked ahead of Wilt, is that unlike many of other all time greats that get debated, they actually went head to head. And when they did, Russell usually came out on top.

[sdot_thadon]

Most fans already do lol, we judge these guys up against guys we never got to see live or day to day to understand the hype or adulation even the criticism around them at the time. And nobody has a clue what level their comp was because they are only familiar with the legend. I've always maintained I'd love to see all the top 10 guys under the same scrutiny Lebron and Kobe have been given.

[jlip]

While that's possibly how "casuals" determine their rankings, most knowledgeable fans don't consider championships the only criterion that places Russell in the GOAT conversation. Without watching one second of any game he ever played, his "gazillion championships" is factored into the equation by casuals the same way MJs (6-0 in the Finals) is factored in his case. Championships matter to the masses.

But again, knowledgeable fans and students of basketball history don't just look at Russell's championships. They consider that he also has just as many league MVPs as MJ which is tied for 2nd most all time. They recognize that he has statistical titles (led the league in rebounding five times) and would more than likely have several blocks titles also if the stat was counted during his era. He is universally acknowledged as one of the greatest defensive players of all time, and again, most non- casuals understand that he typically elevated his game when it mattered most including leading his team in scoring in multiple finals. Russell was widely recognized by coaches, opponents, and the media as a transcendent and dominant player who was the primary reason for his team's success despite seldomly leading his team in scoring as late as 1980 when he was essentially voted the GOAT on the NBA's 35th anniversary team.

I would surmise that it is more so the result of subscribing to the "MJ model of greatness" that has had the greatest impact of how Russell is skeptically viewed today, not particularly lack of footage or even assumed lack of competition. With the mass marketing of MJ and his success, greatness became more singularly associated with a player who's strongest contribution was individual scoring. Before MJ, evaluators of the game were able to appreciate players who dominated and impacted the game without necessarily being their team's leading scorer. That's why peak Bill Walton was winning MVP and some "best player in the game" talk along with Kareem in the mid 70's despite peaking at 18.9ppg in the 70's. It's why Magic and Bird, to a lesser extent, could win FMVPs and considered the best players in the game without necessarily leading their team in scoring all of the time.

The idea that there is a special "Russell lens" which considers him to be in the GOAT conversation only because of championships is the result of how we have been conditioned to view greatness as opposed to how good he truly was.

[j3lademaster]

The reason I have Russell ranked ahead of Wilt, is that unlike many of other all time greats that get debated, they actually went head to head. And when they did, Russell usually came out on top.

Russell won, but Wilt outplayed him virtually every time they met. 26/28 on 51% vs 15/25 on 42% shooting, thatÂ’s their playoff h2h. Wilt can win those rings too, he literally did for the Lakers later in his career. 55 rebounds vs 19. What does that even look like in real time? ItÂ’s not like one guy got hot and hung 60 against well played defense. You get 55 boards on someone youÂ’re straight bullying them.

[Full Court]

Russell won, but Wilt outplayed him virtually every time they met. 26/28 on 51% vs 15/25 on 42% shooting, thatÂ’s their playoff h2h. Wilt can win those rings too, he literally did for the Lakers later in his career. 55 rebounds vs 19. What does that even look like in real time? ItÂ’s not like one guy got hot and hung 60 against well played defense. You get 55 boards on someone youÂ’re straight bullying them.

Fair points. It's really close between Russell and Wilt in my opinion. I give Russell a slight edge, but it's is close to a toss up as you can get.

[Jasper]

Most haven't seen Bill Russell play even a single full game. Most don't know the context of his stats or championships. Most don't know the detail of basketball rules or life in the 60s. Most only have access to grainy black and white highlights that they don't even watch. But he won a gazillion championships so most figures lets just put him somewhere in the top 10.

What if we put every player in this lens, how would the GOAT list look like?

I was about 8 years old when Russell called it quites...
My list Russell 10

[Axe]

Russell won, but Wilt outplayed him virtually every time they met. 26/28 on 51% vs 15/25 on 42% shooting, thatÂ’s their playoff h2h. Wilt can win those rings too, he literally did for the Lakers later in his career. 55 rebounds vs 19. What does that even look like in real time? ItÂ’s not like one guy got hot and hung 60 against well played defense. You get 55 boards on someone youÂ’re straight bullying them.

Wilt's numbers were a bit inflated bt.

[j3lademaster]

Wilt's numbers were a bit inflated bt.

Moot point since we're comparing h2h. If Wilt's numbers were inflated due to his era, so were Russell's.

[Axe]

Moot point since we're comparing h2h. If Wilt's numbers were inflated due to his era, so were Russell's.

Maybe. But russell didn't go for the numbers. He went for making impact instead.

[BigShotBob]

Moot point since we're comparing h2h. If Wilt's numbers were inflated due to his era, so were Russell's.

Wilt admitted that he didn't make winning plays like Russell did, so he couldn't replicate Russell's success on the Celtics since Bill made his teammates into HOFers. Not the other way around.