2023 Australian Open Final: GOAT Novak Djokovic vs. Chosen One Stefanos Tsitsipas

[ArbitraryWater]

vs

https://www.youtube.com/shorts/iDVhNMT-bWE

[ArbitraryWater]

I don't think it was a technical issue with Fed really though. He was just slightly less of a dog than Novak or Rafa and was more set in his ways. Didn't adjust like he should have both with the actual racket and mentally.

I guess the sentiment I have is that if all 3 are playing their best and it's a completely neutral surface he's tough to beat. I know grass isn't the best determinant for Rafa vs Fed in particular but Fed ate him alive with the backhand at Wimbledon in 2019. It's less stable, yes. But when it's on it was like if Shaq had that FT line hook shot going or if Lebron is hitting faders.

I'm comfortable with him being 3rd of the group but it's way closer than most acknowledge.

Absolutely was very close.

We can isolate certain weeks and Feds peak level might be higher, but isolate slams and its hardly possible.

You cant really prove his superior peak level with anything other than random isolated weeks.

It didnt happen when they matched up at slams. 2019 WB could have been an argument for that. He was on his way to his first ever slam where he beat both Nadal and Djokovic.

[ShawkFactory]

I’ve never argued that Feds backhand is better than Rafa’s so I’m not sure the use of this.

Fed DID have the best serve of the bunch and his forehand was second to none as well. His biggest problem compared to the other two, as I’ve said is that when he met his match he usually would fold (very slightly) quicker. Just a product of his personality is suppose.

[ArbitraryWater]

I’ve never argued that Feds backhand is better than Rafa’s so I’m not sure the use of this.

Fed DID have the best serve of the bunch and his forehand was second to none as well. His biggest problem compared to the other two, as I’ve said is that when he met his match he usually would fold (very slightly) quicker. Just a product of his personality is suppose.

Agreed, and not just very slightly id say.

[ShawkFactory]

Agreed, and not just very slightly id say.

Yep. Which IMO is kind of a product of his greatness as a pure player having 20 slams without really have that killer mentality.

And he's beaten both of them plenty of times too. It's not like he's a full paper tiger beating up on Marco Baghdatis.

[PANTHALASSA]

Tune in, fellas.

The big one.

Can Djokovic win a record-tying 22nd slam, tying Nadal, distancing himself from Federer by one more, or can Tsitsipas win his first?

We have a big one on our hands.

If Djokovic wins, even for me as a Nadal fan, it will be near impossible to deny him of his GOAThood. I always point out how many slams Rafa was denied by injury when he was BETTER than Djokovic, but thats a tough argument many casuals dont like to entertain.

Just the way I like it.

[dankok8]

LOL at taking Rafa over Novak outside of clay..

Novax Djocovid is the GOAT. Deal with it!

[ArbitraryWater]

LOL at taking Rafa over Novak outside of clay..

Novax Djocovid is the GOAT. Deal with it!

I would take Nadal in a peak for peak match-up at Wimbedon and the US Open.

Probaby not the Australian Open, but we did see a non-peak Nadal force a peak Djokovic to just about as close of a match as possibly could.

[dankok8]

I would take Nadal in a peak for peak match-up at Wimbedon and the US Open.

Probaby not the Australian Open, but we did see a non-peak Nadal force a peak Djokovic to just about as close of a match as possibly could.

Based on what would you take Rafa at WB and USO? Rafa is 9-22 against Novak outside of clay and since Novak entered his prime in 2011 Rafa is 2-15 against Novak on hard/grass. It's insanely one-sided.

[ArbitraryWater]

Based on what would you take Rafa at WB and USO? Rafa is 9-22 against Novak outside of clay and since Novak entered his prime in 2011 Rafa is 2-15 against Novak on hard/grass. It's insanely one-sided.

For starters, Rafa has more USO‘s and a winning H2H against Djokovic at the USO. That‘s an easy argument to make. I‘d take 2010/2013/2017/2019 on any Djokovic version but 2011, which I would still take 2010 over. 2011 Djokovic is like a different Djokovic (although I think current one is not too far off).

As far as Wimbledon goes, 2007 and 2008 Nadal went toe to toe with PEAK grass Federer. It‘s also no stretch to say 2010 Nadal had just improved from those versions. So I‘d take those 3 slightly ahead of 2011/2015 Djokovic, by a bit more over 2018 and 2022 Djokovic and by a lot over 2014/2019/2021 Djokovic.

[dankok8]

For starters, Rafa has more USO‘s and a winning H2H against Djokovic at the USO. That‘s an easy argument to make. I‘d take 2010/2013/2017/2019 on any Djokovic version but 2011, which I would still take 2010 over. 2011 Djokovic is like a different Djokovic (although I think current one is not too far off).

As far as Wimbledon goes, 2007 and 2008 Nadal went toe to toe with PEAK grass Federer. It‘s also no stretch to say 2010 Nadal had just improved from those versions. So I‘d take those 3 slightly ahead of 2011/2015 Djokovic, by a bit more over 2018 and 2022 Djokovic and by a lot over 2014/2019/2021 Djokovic.

Novak has a higher USO Win % and reached many more Finals (9 to 5) and Semifinals (12 to 8). This is more telling that just counting titles. 2011 Novak beat both Fed and Nadal back-to-back to win the USO which is just legendary stuff. He had to come back from 2 sets down against Fed then beat Nadal in four. 2011 Novak has a better claim than any version of Nadal. 2010 or 2013 Nadal maybe you can make a case but 2011 Nadal was healthy and couldn't beat Novak. No reason to think another version suddenly could.

WB is not even close. Novak since 2011 face Rafa twice at WB and won both times in 2011 and 2018. 7-2 in Titles, 8-5 in Finals, 11-8 in Semifinals. Win % is night and day in favor of Novak. Rafa beating a suffering Fed in 2008 has little bearing on this. Rafa lost to Fed in 2006, 2007 and 2019. Novak lost to Fed in 2012 and won in 2014, 2015 and 2019.

Again.. their H2H since 2011 is extremely lopsided. 15-2 in favor of Djokovic on grass and hard courts. Hard to favor Nadal anywhere outside of clay.

[ArbitraryWater]

Novak has a higher USO Win % and reached many more Finals (9 to 5) and Semifinals (12 to 8). This is more telling that just counting titles. 2011 Novak beat both Fed and Nadal back-to-back to win the USO which is just legendary stuff. He had to come back from 2 sets down against Fed then beat Nadal in four. 2011 Novak has a better claim than any version of Nadal. 2010 or 2013 Nadal maybe you can make a case but 2011 Nadal was healthy and couldn't beat Novak. No reason to think another version suddenly could.

WB is not even close. Novak since 2011 face Rafa twice at WB and won both times in 2011 and 2018. 7-2 in Titles, 8-5 in Finals, 11-8 in Semifinals. Win % is night and day in favor of Novak. Rafa beating a suffering Fed in 2008 has little bearing on this. Rafa lost to Fed in 2006, 2007 and 2019. Novak lost to Fed in 2012 and won in 2014, 2015 and 2019.

Again.. their H2H since 2011 is extremely lopsided. 15-2 in favor of Djokovic on grass and hard courts. Hard to favor Nadal anywhere outside of clay.

Youre mentioning a lot of things that have nothing to do with who you would take at their peak (for that you need to compare their best tournaments. And USO Djokovic falls greatly short outside of 2011. 2015 and 2018 have no claim as to being better than 2010/2013 Nadal, theyre not even better than 2013 Djokovic).

As far as the H2H, most of it comes from wins over Nadal during his off-form period 2015-16. literally half of the wins come from that period (6). 3 more wins came for Djokovic in late 2009, when Rafa amounted his longest top 10 losing streak. Ergo, the H2H is misleading.

"suffering Fed in 2008" is completely fabricated.

Federer had his best ever pre-Wimbedon tournament / Halle, not losing a set and then his best-ever run to the finals, again not losing a set.

He had never had such level / form entering a Wimbedon final. And you call that man "suffering", thats funny, but it doesnt align with the facts.

2011 Nadal clearly was nowhere near 2010 Nadal and its most evident when you view the BH in 2011. In fact, many thought Murray would beat him in the USO semis. Odds were pretty close.

Djokovic was healthy in 2012, that doesnt mean Im gonna pretend he was at his 2011 level, right?


Djokovics case is good enough man, so why the falsehoods and lack of context? Hate having to do these corrections.

[imdaman99]

Lol what makes tsitipas the chosen one? Is that who you're ready to align yourself with now that Rafa is near done?
Sorry, he doesn't have it... I would even take Med over him even though he has a boring ass game. Z is actually the most talented of them 3 but he's also a headcase. Dude had his best chance against Thiem and blew it over and over.

Hope Alcaraz is not injury prone, he brings excitement. I have no problem calling Djokovic the goat... he's not really likeable and his game is less appealing than the other 2 but he is consistent in a robotic way. The only person that can beat him in this weakass era is Nadal at PC.

[ArbitraryWater]

Sinner/Rune are my guys.

Sinner choked. Rune got unlucky.

[dankok8]

Youre mentioning a lot of things that have nothing to do with who you would take at their peak (for that you need to compare their best tournaments. And USO Djokovic falls greatly short outside of 2011. 2015 and 2018 have no claim as to being better than 2010/2013 Nadal, theyre not even better than 2013 Djokovic).

As far as the H2H, most of it comes from wins over Nadal during his off-form period 2015-16. literally half of the wins come from that period (6). 3 more wins came for Djokovic in late 2009, when Rafa amounted his longest top 10 losing streak. Ergo, the H2H is misleading.

"suffering Fed in 2008" is completely fabricated.

Federer had his best ever pre-Wimbedon tournament / Halle, not losing a set and then his best-ever run to the finals, again not losing a set.

He had never had such level / form entering a Wimbedon final. And you call that man "suffering", thats funny, but it doesnt align with the facts.

2011 Nadal clearly was nowhere near 2010 Nadal and its most evident when you view the BH in 2011. In fact, many thought Murray would beat him in the USO semis. Odds were pretty close.

Djokovic was healthy in 2012, that doesnt mean Im gonna pretend he was at his 2011 level, right?


Djokovics case is good enough man, so why the falsehoods and lack of context? Hate having to do these corrections.

Ok 2011 Djokovic. What is the argument for any version of Nadal over him? 2011 Nadal only wasn't as good as 2010 Nadal because he was suddenly losing to prime Djokovic. Rafa was healthy in 2011.

2008 Fed had a disaster season the first half of the year. Losing to the likes of Stepanek, Fish and Roddick at major tournaments, players he would never lose to the previous four years. And baby Novak at 2008 AO SF just swept him aside. Taking his struggles into account, Rafa eeking out a win in 5 sets isn't that impressive. I mean it is impressive but not to the level of "Hey this guy is one of the best grasscourt players ever..." Not even close.