Dennis Rodman on the 1996 Chicago Bulls

[Soundwave]

Lies? OK. So during 91-98 Pippen averaged 20 a game. Grant and Armstrong were begging for more shots during the 1st 3peat. In 94 without Mj, Scottie made them both Allstars.....

Grant and Armstrong were OK, neither of them could really average 18-20 ppg anywhere though with regularity, but the Bulls had BJ Armstrong basically taken away in 1995, so that kinda offset any gains they made by getting Kukoc by the time Jordan returned.

Rodman also couldn't score as much as Grant.

The 1st 3-peat, BJ Armstrong was still coming into his own and a young raw player in the first two championships, it's only really in 92-93 that he started to become a fairly decent player.

But c'mon compare this to the Celtics that had like James Worthy as the no.3 option or what the Celtics or Pistons had as their no.3/4 options, it totally shits all over Horace Grant or BJ Armstrong.

It's not like Jordan was holding back Horace Grant and BJ Armstrong, they were OK players but not like superstars or even star tier players, they're definitely not James Worthy or Kevin McHale tier players.

[Da_Realist]

Lies? OK. So during 91-98 Pippen averaged 20 a game. Grant and Armstrong were begging for more shots during the 1st 3peat. In 94 without Mj, Scottie made them both Allstars.....

The difference in Grant and Armstrong between the 93 and 94 seasons is negligible. A point or two here and a rebound there. They weren't better players, they were the exact same. No team devised schemes to stop them. They were what they always were.

[Micku]

I truly dislike this bit of propaganda Mj fans perpetrate now days. Mj did not shoulder that much of the scoring load because he HAD to, that's bs. He literally had teammates bitching and moaning behind the scenes of the 1st 3peat about shot attempts. He also actively pursued scoring numbers and scoring titles. A system literally needed to be put in place to limit his grip on the offense lol. Some of you guys claimed to have watched it live and for the life of me I can't see how you guys don't remember him going back into games well out of hand sometimes to jack up 7 or 8 shots in a row to get his average for the night. Whether hes your GOAT or right there up top doesnt really matter but its time to start calling it like it really was fellas. Mythology doesn't really work well in 2023.

I remember a bunch of games where it felt like MJ was the only that could score tbh. It was mostly in the 80s and the late 90s. The offense really relied on MJ. And even when his teammates had an open shot, they couldn't make it. You could argue that it MJ messed up rhythm, but it wasn't that really.

Like MJ usually scored within the flow of the offense. It wasn't like how Kobe sometimes disrupt the offense back in the day because he got impatient. Although MJ DID do that every once in a while, but it wasn't that bad. The idea was that with the triangle, it would give the ball to other players to get them more involved and improve on the Bulls chances. It worked, but you can also argue the teammates improved too regardless of the triangle, but I think both are true. Regardless of the playstyle, MJ plus/minus was crazy high for the ppl who actually tried to calculate back then. They were always better while he was on the floor. Created a bunch of open shots for his teammates, but there were many times when he didn't pass it. He got better at that later on in his career.

MJ in the 80s would've do wonders for how the system is set up with the amount of spacing they have. He needed shooters to pass to, lol. Cuz he certainly didn't have it back in the 80s.

[Micku]

This is what Jordan told Carmello Anthony with regards on how to average 30ppg.

Carmelo recalls how Jordan broke down scoring to him by quarter.

“Say you average about 28, there’s an easy way to get it. He (Jordan) said, ‘break down 7 points a quarter. That’s 2-3 layups, 2-3 free throws. You get hot one quarter, you might have 11, 12, 13 (points) one quarter, now second quarter you can pace, you get your 14 (points) in two quarters.’


So Jordan scoring so much was never about needing to. It was about trying to get over that 30ppg threshold.

Well, Shaq said a similar thing to many centers too tho. I think that's more of a scorer mentality than it is purely MJ. Although being able to control the pace of the game and knowing when to score and when to be a decoy is the true mastery of the art. Some players are better than others. That's when shot selection takes into account too and whatever if you can execute.

[Xiao Yao You]

I remember a bunch of games where it felt like MJ was the only that could score tbh. It was mostly in the 80s and the late 90s. The offense really relied on MJ. And even when his teammates had an open shot, they couldn't make it. You could argue that it MJ messed up rhythm, but it wasn't that really.

Like MJ usually scored within the flow of the offense. It wasn't like how Kobe sometimes disrupt the offense back in the day because he got impatient. Although MJ DID do that every once in a while, but it wasn't that bad. The idea was that with the triangle, it would give the ball to other players to get them more involved and improve on the Bulls chances. It worked, but you can also argue the teammates improved too regardless of the triangle, but I think both are true. Regardless of the playstyle, MJ plus/minus was crazy high for the ppl who actually tried to calculate back then. They were always better while he was on the floor. Created a bunch of open shots for his teammates, but there were many times when he didn't pass it. He got better at that later on in his career.

MJ in the 80s would've do wonders for how the system is set up with the amount of spacing they have. He needed shooters to pass to, lol. Cuz he certainly didn't have it back in the 80s.

I remember he'd often start out games trying to get his teammates involved and he'd have to take over in the 4th

[97 bulls]

Well, Shaq said a similar thing to many centers too tho. I think that's more of a scorer mentality than it is purely MJ. Although being able to control the pace of the game and knowing when to score and when to be a decoy is the true mastery of the art. Some players are better than others. That's when shot selection takes into account too and whatever if you can execute.

I see. I only brought it up because it's been routinely said that Jordan took all those shots because he had to. When Jordan himself said he did it cuz he wanted to.

[kawhileonard2]

I see. I only brought it up because it's been routinely said that Jordan took all those shots because he had to. When Jordan himself said he did it cuz he wanted to.

Jordan had to. They never won a title or got to the ECF when he didn't. Prove me wrong!

[97 bulls]

Jordan had to. They never won a title or got to the ECF when he didn't. Prove me wrong!

How are they supposed to? If he's hellbent on leading the league in scoring.

[3ba11]

If jordan had Bird or Magic's cast, he would've won 70-80 games every year

Expansion spread the talent around evenly in the 90's so it was a 2-star vs 2-star format - if the 80's was like that then MJ could've won with Woolridge.. Woolridge didn't get time to develop with prime MJ like pippen did and he didn't get to play in a 2-star vs 2-star format.

[Xiao Yao You]

If jordan had Bird or Magic's cast, he would've won 70-80 games every year

Expansion spread the talent around evenly in the 90's so it was a 2-star vs 2-star format - if the 80's was like that then MJ could've won with Woolridge.. Woolridge didn't get time to develop with prime MJ like pippen did and he didn't get to play in a 2-star vs 2-star format.

Woolridge was doing coke. He wasn't the guy

[3ba11]

Woolridge was doing coke. He wasn't the guy

Cocaine aside, anyone will win alongside Jordan in a 2-star vs 2-star format.

Out of all the players in history that had a playoff run of 15 games and 35 mpg, Pippen had the worst efficiency ever and he did this twice (96' and 98' Playoffs).. So Jordan won 2 titles with literally the biggest bricklayer and lane-clogger ever

Jordan had #1 offenses and 3-peated with a team that was playing 4 on 5 offensively (rodman) and had the biggest lane-clogger ever at sidekick (pippen averaged 17 on 41% for entire 96-98' Playoffs)...

Otoh, a guy like Lebron can't win with lane-cloggers and his style of imposing spot-up roles could never develop a Pippen, Ingram or Kuzma to begin with

[sdot_thadon]

Grant and Armstrong were OK, neither of them could really average 18-20 ppg anywhere though with regularity, but the Bulls had BJ Armstrong basically taken away in 1995, so that kinda offset any gains they made by getting Kukoc by the time Jordan returned.

Rodman also couldn't score as much as Grant.

The 1st 3-peat, BJ Armstrong was still coming into his own and a young raw player in the first two championships, it's only really in 92-93 that he started to become a fairly decent player.

But c'mon compare this to the Celtics that had like James Worthy as the no.3 option or what the Celtics or Pistons had as their no.3/4 options, it totally shits all over Horace Grant or BJ Armstrong.

It's not like Jordan was holding back Horace Grant and BJ Armstrong, they were OK players but not like superstars or even star tier players, they're definitely not James Worthy or Kevin McHale tier players.

The whole point isn't that they were star tier players lol, were comparing them to 2nd options here.....

I agree they would never get the amount of shots required to average 18-20 points a game. Grant was enough to knock the Bulls out of the playoffs in 95. He was a solid player that is the type of guy you'd want on a contender. Could score consistently in his role and give you all league level defense.

[sdot_thadon]

The difference in Grant and Armstrong between the 93 and 94 seasons is negligible. A point or two here and a rebound there. They weren't better players, they were the exact same. No team devised schemes to stop them. They were what they always were.

I beg to differ, one year says allstar and one doesn't. Huge difference. And they were the support to basically a game difference in record minus the goat. Let's be real.

[sdot_thadon]

I remember a bunch of games where it felt like MJ was the only that could score tbh. It was mostly in the 80s and the late 90s. The offense really relied on MJ. And even when his teammates had an open shot, they couldn't make it. You could argue that it MJ messed up rhythm, but it wasn't that really.

Like MJ usually scored within the flow of the offense. It wasn't like how Kobe sometimes disrupt the offense back in the day because he got impatient. Although MJ DID do that every once in a while, but it wasn't that bad. The idea was that with the triangle, it would give the ball to other players to get them more involved and improve on the Bulls chances. It worked, but you can also argue the teammates improved too regardless of the triangle, but I think both are true. Regardless of the playstyle, MJ plus/minus was crazy high for the ppl who actually tried to calculate back then. They were always better while he was on the floor. Created a bunch of open shots for his teammates, but there were many times when he didn't pass it. He got better at that later on in his career.

MJ in the 80s would've do wonders for how the system is set up with the amount of spacing they have. He needed shooters to pass to, lol. Cuz he certainly didn't have it back in the 80s.

I agree with a lot you've said here because at times Mj was the only one that could score, that goes for most stars we've seen tho. I do disagree with the notion he never hijacked the offense, on the contrary he did it pretty often, so did Scottie. They were the only guys on the team given carte blanche to do so. All it took is for a guy to score on him on the other end lol.

[sdot_thadon]

If jordan had Bird or Magic's cast, he would've won 70-80 games every year

Expansion spread the talent around evenly in the 90's so it was a 2-star vs 2-star format - if the 80's was like that then MJ could've won with Woolridge.. Woolridge didn't get time to develop with prime MJ like pippen did and he didn't get to play in a 2-star vs 2-star format.

If he had Bird's or Magics casts he'd have made then lesser players by taking their shots away. Soundwave said In his post Mj didn't have a guy like McHale or worthy that low in the depth chart but neither of those teams had a 30 ppg scorer taking that many shots either, it balances out. More shots for your supporting cast sometimes, I dunno.....makes them end up scoring more points....jeez does that sound like sorcery?