Disproving 3ball's myths about Jordan

[coastalmarker99]

3ball repeats in thread after thread that MJ “made” Pippen and that Pippen wasn’t good at the start of his career

he mainly references 7.9 PPG in 88.

But Let’s walk a timeline.

He got drafted bc of what he did at all-star camps.

In Portsmouth, he dominated. 17-20 in 2 games.

Muggsy/Garland were there, didn’t do as well.

He got invited to a bigger event in Hawaii a week later.


In Hawaii, he was all tournament team, slam dunk contest winner and clutch in games. Reggie, KJ, Donovan, Reggie Lewis, all there. None were all-tournament.

Then he went to Chicago for an NBA front office camp, and dominated.

Up to the 5th pick. The same slot as Wade and Love.

Pippen held out his 1st year, and so, as a result, he played his first preseason game only TWO DAYS after joining Bulls camp.

In his 1st 2 preseason games, he scored 17 twice and dominated the 2nd game, with 7 RB, 5 ast and 4 steals. In 23-25 min.

Did MJ “make” him in two days?

This is a key point.

Pippen arrived on a Thursday after missing 10 practices.

On Saturday and Sunday, he played 2 games and scored 17 in each and in In low minutes.

Not 7.9.

He hadn’t even seen an NBA game yet.

He played in the 1st one he saw.

That preseason, teammates were raving.

His coach said he was clutch.

Scouts were calling him a star.

He was considered Hall of Fame material by Rick Barry, then an NBA TV analyst.

This guy seems legit, no?

This MJ development schedule is incredible.


Even though he outplayed Sellers, Pippen still didn’t start Collins didn’t start rookies.

His first 4 games, 3 weeks after joining camp:

Game 1: 23 min, 10 pts, 1 RB, 4 ast, 2 steals
Gm 2: 24 min, 11/8/4/0
Gm 3: 23 min, 8/3/5/3. Led team in assists
Gm 4: 29 min, 15/3/2/3

4-0.


If you prorate his FIRST WEEK to his career minutes per game (36 min, per-36):

Points: 16.0 (90% of NBA SF avg per-36 pts in 80s)
Rebounds: 5.5 (90%)
Assists: 5.5 (174%)
Steals: 3.0 (230%)

Lower points, but shooting 54% and game 4 was 103%.

Normal run rate Pippen. Just no MP.


This continued the full month of November.

The Bulls opened 12-3.

In a 38 min game in Boston, Pippen was 20/1/7 with 6 steals.

He even made a last shot vs GSW.

His progress was so astounding he got a full feature article (several pages) in Sports Illustrated in NOVEMBER.


Over his first month, Pippen’s per-36 MATCHED his career averages, outside of assists.

FG%, points, shot attempts, steals, blocks, offensive rebounds…all at or above his career averages.

This was the same guy just not getting minutes yet.

No “development” needed.



This whole 1st month is whitewashed by 3ball as it didn’t happen.

Then Pippen got hurt.

A thumb injury, and then the bigger back injury.

Pippen played through, bc the Bulls misdiagnosed the back injury.

He got surgery in the offseason, and had to find pain relief along the way.



Pippen covered this in his book.

To this day, 3ball criticizes Pippen for being “lazy.”

No, he was “70%.”

he only looked like he was a bum because he was hurt and played.


Even with all this, Pippen helped a lot in 1988.

He and Grant were considered the “main difference” in 88.

Pippen was named Player of the Game in the Winner Take All game 5 versus the Cavs, his 1st start.

In MJ’s first playoff series win, Pippen got the headlines.

As a rookie.


In 1989, the Bulls brought him back slowly. He didn’t start until 12/27 and only played 3 30 minute games prior to 12/31.

So…his chances of being an All Star in year 1 and year 2 were blown by injury.

In year 3, he made it. Same timing as Stockton, Malone, Drexler, Miller.



If you take just the games Pippen played 30+ minutes in his career, his 1st and 2nd-year activity nearly replicates the rest of his career.

When he was healthy enough to play 30 min in his first 2 years (and not benched with “nagging” injuries)…he was nearly the same guy.

So MJ didn’t “make” Pippen.

Pippen was an elite player from the 1st moment he stepped on an NBA court.

Did MJ help?

Sure. All vets do and Pippen helped MJ too.

This is all a bogus narrative.

Pippen was playing really well at the outset and His stats were impacted by injuries.

[Full Court]

Pippen is an all time great. We all know that. You don't need to convince anyone.

[coastalmarker99]

According to 3Ball himself, the Bulls' first three-peat was very suspect.

As he himself has claimed on record that the Suns win in 1993 with KJ healthy or the Lakers win in 1991 with Worthy healthy.


First, this was an even series.

Chicago as -200, so a slight favorite.

We’ll never know what the odds were excluding Worthy’s ankle issue as It was always baked in.

LA had experience, which clearly showed up in game 1.

The Bulls lineup, though, had started 183 games together.


Worthy hurt his ankle in gm 5 of the WCF vs Portland.

He continued to play but was ineffective. 12 points and 8 points.

He averaged 21.4 PPG for the year, the Lakers' leading scorer.

Regular season GameScore was 15.6.

Games 5 & 6 in the WCF, 4.2.

This issue existed pre-Finals.


As we headed into the Finals, his ankle was a major topic.

It’s not an “excuse.”

Rest between games was a key factor mentioned:

Game 1: after 3 days rest
Gm 2: after 3 days rest

Gm 3 and 4: after 2 days rest

Games 1 & 2 should’ve been his best games.

They were.

The Lakers won in game 1 when MJ missed a last second shot (what?!?).

Worthy looked OK. Played 45 min, scored 22.

But…on 24 shots.

He only had 3 rebounds and one assist. Below the 5/3 season avg.

The Lakers saw trouble when he tweaked the ankle again in the 4th.

He got rest and work on the ankle between games. Walk through practices.

The Bulls won game 2 by 21, with Pippen guarding Magic.

Worthy looked good and felt better. 40 min, 24 pts on 17 shots, 5 rebounds. Started fast.

3 days of rest worked but it was now a thing of the past.

One argument people make is that the Bulls won game 2 with Worthy playing well, so it was irrelevant. The Bulls would win the series.

Except…winning teams get blown out all the time

Boston didn’t win in 1985 despite destroying LA in game one.

And Worthy’s defense was part of the issue as well, as called out.


Game 3 is where things turn. Right at halftime.

Through the first half, Worthy scored 15, and the Lakers were down by 1.

To this point, the series was dead even 1-1, with 1 point separating them at halftime and Worthy averaging the equivalent of 24 PPG with the Lakers taking home court.


The game went to OT, Bulls winning.

In the 2nd half, Worthy started limping as he scored 4 points in H2 and OT combined.

He also got one rebound in the game Worthy wasn’t an elite rebounder, but the Lakers got killed on the boards, 46-29 and They set a record for fewest rebounds.


At this point, Worthy was toast. Worthy himself was saying he couldn’t cut, and that all he could do was try to get in the way when it came to rebounds.

As noted, he was visibly limping, and even Dunleavy pointed out he was “dragging.”


So Game 3 was impacted by Worthy’s injury.

In Game 4, Worthy played 31 minutes, scoring 12 points on 16 shots. He took himself out, saying he couldn’t contribute.

He didn’t play game 5.

Before game 5, Magic summarized the situation. Even he said Worthy “can’t defend.”


So…of course it impacted the series.

Even then, it was a 1 pt game in game 1, an OT game in game 3, and the Lakers were up 3 in game 5 with 5 minutes to play, without either Worthy or Scott.

This injury swung the series in the Bulls favour

[Baller789]

Who has time to post all this $h!t?

[3ba11]

Rookie Pippen averaged 7.9 and 14/3 as a sophomore, so Jordan didn't have a sidekick in 88' or 89', and he didn't have one in the 1990 Game 7 either.

But aside from Pippen being a low-producing transition player and system player (never a go-to player or dominant and worse than prime Jeff Green outside the system), the point you're missing is that certain player-types have a record of player development and certain player-types don't.

Specifically, when expert jumpshooters like Curry or MJ score a lot, their buckets are often assisted by teammates, so guys like Pippen, BJ, Grant, Draymond, Klay or Poole can grow statistically into meaningful producers.. Otoh, ball-dominators like Luka or Lebron impose spot-up roles that can't develop Ingram or Kuzma and has bad fits with Brunson, Porzingas, Hughes, Westbrook, Jamison, Love, Bosh, Clarkson.. Ingram and Kuzma saw 1-year drops across the board alongside Lebron (3-point efficiency, PER, BPM, VORP, WS48) and Kuzma was averaging like 11 ppg before leaving Lebron for Washington - Lebron's skillset of abnormall ball-dominance literally destroyed Kuzma.

So that's the ultimate point that I'm always making - expert jumpshooters allow the best teammate development, chemistry and strategic capacity (coaching), so they can win more with less, such as winning with secondary producers like Wiggins, Pippen, Terry, Lowry, Pau or Klay instead of juggernauts like AD, Kareem, Wade, Kyrie plus all-star scorers at 3rd option too.

[3ba11]

So MJ lost to dynasties with bad casts from 86-90', while Lebron lost to 1-star teams twice despite having all-star teammates and being the favorite (09, 11')

[sdot_thadon]

3ball repeats in thread after thread that MJ “made” Pippen and that Pippen wasn’t good at the start of his career

he mainly references 7.9 PPG in 88.

But Let’s walk a timeline.

He got drafted bc of what he did at all-star camps.

In Portsmouth, he dominated. 17-20 in 2 games.

Muggsy/Garland were there, didn’t do as well.

He got invited to a bigger event in Hawaii a week later.


In Hawaii, he was all tournament team, slam dunk contest winner and clutch in games. Reggie, KJ, Donovan, Reggie Lewis, all there. None were all-tournament.

Then he went to Chicago for an NBA front office camp, and dominated.

Up to the 5th pick. The same slot as Wade and Love.

Pippen held out his 1st year, and so, as a result, he played his first preseason game only TWO DAYS after joining Bulls camp.

In his 1st 2 preseason games, he scored 17 twice and dominated the 2nd game, with 7 RB, 5 ast and 4 steals. In 23-25 min.

Did MJ “make” him in two days?

This is a key point.

Pippen arrived on a Thursday after missing 10 practices.

On Saturday and Sunday, he played 2 games and scored 17 in each and in In low minutes.

Not 7.9.

He hadn’t even seen an NBA game yet.

He played in the 1st one he saw.

That preseason, teammates were raving.

His coach said he was clutch.

Scouts were calling him a star.

He was considered Hall of Fame material by Rick Barry, then an NBA TV analyst.

This guy seems legit, no?

This MJ development schedule is incredible.


Even though he outplayed Sellers, Pippen still didn’t start Collins didn’t start rookies.

His first 4 games, 3 weeks after joining camp:

Game 1: 23 min, 10 pts, 1 RB, 4 ast, 2 steals
Gm 2: 24 min, 11/8/4/0
Gm 3: 23 min, 8/3/5/3. Led team in assists
Gm 4: 29 min, 15/3/2/3

4-0.


If you prorate his FIRST WEEK to his career minutes per game (36 min, per-36):

Points: 16.0 (90% of NBA SF avg per-36 pts in 80s)
Rebounds: 5.5 (90%)
Assists: 5.5 (174%)
Steals: 3.0 (230%)

Lower points, but shooting 54% and game 4 was 103%.

Normal run rate Pippen. Just no MP.


This continued the full month of November.

The Bulls opened 12-3.

In a 38 min game in Boston, Pippen was 20/1/7 with 6 steals.

He even made a last shot vs GSW.

His progress was so astounding he got a full feature article (several pages) in Sports Illustrated in NOVEMBER.


Over his first month, Pippen’s per-36 MATCHED his career averages, outside of assists.

FG%, points, shot attempts, steals, blocks, offensive rebounds…all at or above his career averages.

This was the same guy just not getting minutes yet.

No “development” needed.



This whole 1st month is whitewashed by 3ball as it didn’t happen.

Then Pippen got hurt.

A thumb injury, and then the bigger back injury.

Pippen played through, bc the Bulls misdiagnosed the back injury.

He got surgery in the offseason, and had to find pain relief along the way.



Pippen covered this in his book.

To this day, 3ball criticizes Pippen for being “lazy.”

No, he was “70%.”

he only looked like he was a bum because he was hurt and played.


Even with all this, Pippen helped a lot in 1988.

He and Grant were considered the “main difference” in 88.

Pippen was named Player of the Game in the Winner Take All game 5 versus the Cavs, his 1st start.

In MJ’s first playoff series win, Pippen got the headlines.

As a rookie.


In 1989, the Bulls brought him back slowly. He didn’t start until 12/27 and only played 3 30 minute games prior to 12/31.

So…his chances of being an All Star in year 1 and year 2 were blown by injury.

In year 3, he made it. Same timing as Stockton, Malone, Drexler, Miller.



If you take just the games Pippen played 30+ minutes in his career, his 1st and 2nd-year activity nearly replicates the rest of his career.

When he was healthy enough to play 30 min in his first 2 years (and not benched with “nagging” injuries)…he was nearly the same guy.

So MJ didn’t “make” Pippen.

Pippen was an elite player from the 1st moment he stepped on an NBA court.

Did MJ help?

Sure. All vets do and Pippen helped MJ too.

This is all a bogus narrative.

Pippen was playing really well at the outset and His stats were impacted by injuries.

Wasn't aware of this, great post. A certain section will be angry at this.....

[3ba11]

Wasn't aware of this, great post. A certain section will be angry at this.....

admit it.. you stopped reading at 7.9.. i stopped reading once he starting talking about pre-draft camps

[1987_Lakers]

It's funny seeing 3ball afraid to make threads.

[SouBeachTalents]

It's funny seeing 3ball afraid to make threads.

Yep, he just sneaks around from thread to thread now, the mods made him completely docile and obedient

[RRR3]

Yep, he just sneaks around from thread to thread now, the mods made him completely docile and obedient

He told me he'll make a thread when he has an insightful idea lol