Consistent GOAT criteria

[basketballcat]

Inside the mind of a Bronie fluffer: "Bu-bu-bu-but Jordan CAN'T be the GOAT be-be-be-because he shot more free throws than Malone!!!!"

So much desperation.

11 rings, 5 MVPs.

6 MVPs, 6 rings, 2nd most points at higher FG% than Pippen's side kick.

1-9.

[rmt]

That said, Jordan has been the consensus GOAT by overwhelming majority for decades, and he still is. Deal with it.

I'm no MJ fan (can't stand the personality) - been watching the NBA since 1977 and in that time, there hasn't been such dominance from a player and such FEAR in other players.

[3ba11]

The OP was kind of long, so we can go 1 by 1.. What point should I address first OP

[Shaquille O'Neal]

The 2020 Finals...with no home crowds and partial teams played months after stopping the season... ehh... Lakers wouldn't have won sh*t without stopping the momentum of the season and giving them months to recuperate.

The reason 1998 was exciting was because the ride was almost over and everyone was wondering if we'd ever see someone knock MJ off the throne. It was built on the back of a decade of the Bulls knocking off all challengers. One loss would ruin the perfect picture. One more win would top Magic's five championships of the 80's. The 98 team was by far the most vulnerable both physically and in terms of team chemistry. Pippen missed much of the season. Rodman was starting to be distracted. They got rid of Jason Caffey. They let Brian Williams go. But MJ was there every game yet because of this he was a little worn by the time the playoffs rolled around. No load management at 35 years old. We saw him squeeze everything out over the season and wondered if he had more to give in the playoffs. They were less than a quarter away from being knocked out by the Pacers. Then they faced a repeat challenger for the first time but this time without homecourt advantage. We wondered, what more could MJ do? He had the sick game the year before. How could he top that? We got our answer in Game 6. Pippen was hurt and MJ needing to carry the load again. Doing what was needed to keep the team close through 3 and a half quarters. Then he closed out the series in epic fashion. Everyone saw it and was amazed. I don't believe anyone cared what the stat sheet showed because we saw him leave his heart on the floor. That was it. MJ died that day with his arms raised holding up 6 fingers. The guy that came back to play for the Wizards a couple of years later wasn't the real MJ. He was Rakim in the late 90's -- a little past his time. Looked like him, played like some version of him but wasn't really him.

Only when that memory dies along with all the people that watched it does LeBron and his stat nerds have a fair chance to change the narrative.

What a fantastic post that truly captures the essence of his 6th. I'm not going to lie - For the 1997 & 98 years I was rooting for Malone & Stockton to win - just got sick of Jordan beating everybody every year. Was a big Jerry Sloan fan as well. But man, the performance MJ put on that night was as good as it could possibly get. 45 out of his team's 87 with the from-behind game / series winner with 5 seconds left. No bigger stage, no bigger moment, no bigger closer you'll find than Mr. Ice Water veins.

[ImKobe]

What a fantastic post that truly captures the essence of his 6th. I'm not going to lie - For the 1997 & 98 years I was rooting for Malone & Stockton to win - just got sick of Jordan beating everybody every year. Was a big Jerry Sloan fan as well. But man, the performance MJ put on that night was as good as it could possibly get. 45 out of his team's 87 with the from-behind game / series winner with 5 seconds left. No bigger stage, no bigger moment, no bigger closer you'll find than Mr. Ice Water veins.

Forcing the TO down 1 with 18 to go and hitting the series winner is still the greatest sequence by any player in NBA history. Jordan had everything and there's no way a lesser player with lesser achievements could be put on that same level.

I'm sure people are over it 25 years later but Jordan's GOAT case is as strong now as it was back then and if anything is more solidified now as so many greats since then have fallen well short of his achievements.

[basketballcat]

Forcing the TO down 1 with 18 to go and hitting the series winner is still the greatest sequence by any player in NBA history. Jordan had everything and there's no way a lesser player with lesser achievements could be put on that same level.

I'm sure people are over it 25 years later but Jordan's GOAT case is as strong now as it was back then and if anything is more solidified now as so many greats since then have fallen well short of his achievements.

You might want to re-watch that. Pippen Lite wasn't called for a clear offensive foul on that pushoff. Then Harper seals the ring with lockdown D on Stockton.

Them 70 FTs gifted by the referees, sure did help.

[Phoenix]

Bottom line: GOAT is completely subjective. Everyone has their own criteria. Everyone weights their criteria differently based on how they arbitrarily decide to do it. There is not, and never will be, consistent GOAT criteria.


That said, Jordan has been the consensus GOAT by overwhelming majority for decades, and he still is. Deal with it.

Out of 9 pages on this thread, thousands of topics across this forum and others, playground and barbershop arguments.....that's pretty much all anyone reasonably should be able to deduce from this. This is probably like version 5.0 of the NBA based on rules, so comparing someone who played in 2.0 against someone who played in 4.0 30 years apart is fairly pointless.

[Da_Realist]

What a fantastic post that truly captures the essence of his 6th. I'm not going to lie - For the 1997 & 98 years I was rooting for Malone & Stockton to win - just got sick of Jordan beating everybody every year. Was a big Jerry Sloan fan as well. But man, the performance MJ put on that night was as good as it could possibly get. 45 out of his team's 87 with the from-behind game / series winner with 5 seconds left. No bigger stage, no bigger moment, no bigger closer you'll find than Mr. Ice Water veins.

What's even more beautiful is he guaranteed it before the season started.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bpJEHw-Wzlc&t=769s

The confidence of someone who knew how to win and was willing to do anything to get there. That's what a leader looks like. Setting the expectation despite all the drama the team was dealing with. By far the hardest championship but the promise was delivered. Fade to black... The next time we see him was a few years later in a teal uniform on some gawdawful team on the East Coast playing to win but knowing he wouldn't.

[bizil]

For my GOAT criteria, I factor:

Solo accolades
Team Accolades
Numbers
Peak-prime Value
Longevity being great
Impact on the league (being one of the faces of the league, redefining a position, rules change because of the player, etc.)

When u combined all these factors, it's comes down to MJ, Bron, and Cap as the top 3 GOAT. They have the BEST BLEND of all these facets. For those saying Bron as passed MJ by as the GOAT, MJ still has the edge FOR SURE in terms of solo accolades, team accolades, and impact on the league.

MJ's edge in terms of MVP's and Finals MVPs HOLD MORE WEIGHT than Bron's edge in All Star Games or All NBA teams. Cause MJ has a shit ton of those too!

From there, MJ is WIDELY REGARDED as the GOAT of American team sports! Not just the GOAT of the NBA. So if Bron is the GOAT of the NBA, THAT MEANS he's the GOAT of American team sports. In my opinion, Bron is in the top 3 with MJ and Brady as of now.

[3ba11]

Here's the way that we know Jordan is GOAT - he was the only guy that had to deal with actual abuse during games because he was so good.

For example, I don't remember Bill Russell saying that he tried to hurt Wilt every time Wilt touched the ball..... ONLY JORDAN had to deal with legit physical abuse - Salley, Isiah and Rodman said many times on camera that the gameplan was to hurt jordan when he drove the lane.

Salley and Rodman demonstrate the forearm shiver on camera to show what they mean.. This isn't an exaggeration - here's Rodman, Salley and Isiah saying that the entire gameplan was to HURT jordan - this is why Jordan will never forgive Isiah (the ringleader):

https://www.youtube.com/shorts/zWJHnzvF_r4

Nuff said... THAT'S why mj hates isiah (the ringleader of the gang attack) and this fear that he instilled ("we must hurt him to stop him") is why he's GOAT..

His GOAT accolades, stats and winning as the best player only validated the fear that he instilled and the GOAT performance that we saw with our own eyes.

[basketballcat]

Here's the way that we know Jordan is GOAT - he was the only guy that had to deal with actual abuse during games because he was so good.

For example, I don't remember Bill Russell saying that he tried to hurt Wilt every time Wilt touched the ball..... ONLY JORDAN had to deal with legit physical abuse - Salley, Isiah and Rodman said many times on camera that the gameplan was to hurt jordan when he drove the lane.

Salley and Rodman demonstrate the forearm shiver on camera to show what they mean.. This isn't an exaggeration - here's Rodman, Salley and Isiah saying that the entire gameplan was to HURT jordan - this is why Jordan will never forgive Isiah (the ringleader):

https://www.youtube.com/shorts/zWJHnzvF_r4

Nuff said... THAT'S why mj hates isiah (the ringleader of the gang attack) and this fear that he instilled ("we must hurt him to stop him") is why he's GOAT..

His GOAT accolades, stats and winning as the best player only validated the fear that he instilled and the GOAT performance that we saw with our own eyes.

Let's have a look at two popular narratives:
1. 90s was physical, not much fouls called
2. LeBron flops to get calls

Let's look at 98 & 2020 Finals, specifically FTA.

Jordan 70
Malone 38

LeBron 42
Butler 53

Oh dear me, facts don't fit the narratives.

Quick, eye test! For the love of God, eye test!

Not only are the narratives on shaky ground, it appears Pippen's side kick got preferential treatment. LeBron is exactly the opposite, with Butler getting more foul calls.

[kawhileonard2]

#1 all time in Titles, Finals MVP's and League MVP's

MJ = 6 Titles, 6 finals MVP's, 5 League MVP's = 17 Points total
Russell = 11 Titles, 0 finals MVP's, 5 League MVP's = 16 Points Total
Kareem = 6 Titles, 2 finals MVP's, 6 League MVP's = 14 Points Total

[basketballcat]

#1 all time in Titles, Finals MVP's and League MVP's

MJ = 6 Titles, 6 finals MVP's, 5 League MVP's = 17 Points total
Russell = 11 Titles, 0 finals MVP's, 5 League MVP's = 16 Points Total
Kareem = 6 Titles, 2 finals MVP's, 6 League MVP's = 14 Points Total

Oh, you mean the The Bill Russell NBA Finals Most Valuable Player that was first handed out in 1969?

[kawhileonard2]

Oh, you mean the The Bill Russell NBA Finals Most Valuable Player that was first handed out in 1969?

Still doesn't have any. No one else had to win only 2 series and got a title like Russell also joined ROY and MVP winner as well.

[basketballcat]

Still doesn't have any. No one else had to win only 2 series and got a title like Russell also joined ROY and MVP winner as well.

He was MVP 5x. If they handed out FMVPs, he would have about 5 as well. 11+ 5 + 5 = 21.

How about DPOY? That's a major award too. If they handed those out, Russell would have a lot.

By your metric, Horry is better than Olajuwon.