Undeniable Truths About Tim Duncan

[Nowitness]

For all kobes greediness in old age as compared to Duncan, his offensive peak was demonstrably higher. You guys want to talk Duncan being unselfish. How'd that work out in 2008 or 2001? When kobe obliterated him with his offense prime for prime?

Probably should've taken some extra shots if he was that good at it. His offense was never GOAT level though. His defense and intangibles were.

You know Antonio Daniels was his 2nd leading scorer in 01, right? Duncan was doubled every touch.

Who has ever said he was a GOAT level offensive player? I simply stated as his own teams best offensive player he won more titles than anyone bar MJ/Russel (and double the amount Kobe won).

08 was Kobes most important series ever. It still leaves him with one series win over Duncan without another top 10 player all time in his prime being the primary focus for the defence.

[Kblaze8855]

He just...wasn't a dominant offensive player at all when the spurs offense was at arguably its peak. I get what you're saying but he just wasn't the reason for it. It was a coaching and team effort that made those 3pt centric offenses so good.

When the most significant and respected player in the history of the franchise who has won multiple rings, and MVPs, pretty much running a modified four down post play over and over and over, willingly reduces his touches so the ball can be spread around to people considerably less talented than he is for the greater good you don’t find that player is it all responsible for the immense teamwork that develops?

Next time you wonder why players are selfish and concerned about their own numbers and status more than the team……remember this. This is why. This is why aging great players, who still have something in the tank don’t graciously step aside and embrace equal opportunity offense. Fans legitimately think that shooting less when you have the clout to do whatever you want is something to disparage even when the result is what they themselves call historically dominant offense.

Doing the right thing gets you discredited even when you win because even the fans who consider themselves above the casuals want to see the numbers. Let him demand seven more post ups. He will absolutely get them. He would absolutely score more. The team would absolutely be worse and people would think he was better at the time trying to carry scrubs. Because that’s what selfish stars make an awful lot of competent teammates look like. Leonard and Parker were only scoring 16 or 17 a game with a completely unselfish Duncan. Let him demand a few more shots. They score 15 a game while he looks like the heroic leader going down firing. Fans love an efficient shooting loser. You get to ask what else he could’ve done. A lot of times what he could’ve done was spend a lot less time getting the ball in his sweet spot so his teammates can get it in theirs and form a much better team when it counts.

But not every leader is Tim Duncan.

[DMAVS41]

I dont know about 24 a game but I get what you guys are saying. Given how explosive their 3pt shooting was I think Duncan taking all those extra shots would actually hurt the team. So his unselfishness was very valuable. Doesn't take away from what those shooters actually did though. Danny Green and steph curry are the all time leaders in 3pt makes for a finals series.

It would simply depend on how stubborn or selfish that version of Duncan would be. Demanding 5 or so more shots a game is essentially what other stars have done or just did so and nobody told them to stop.

Of course not, Duncan had great help and coaching most of his career and that allowed him to have the success he did...he also was by far the most important factor for the sustained success the Spurs had. Both can be true.

[tpols]

You know Antonio Daniels was his 2nd leading scorer in 01, right? Duncan was doubled every touch.

Who has ever said he was a GOAT level offensive player? I simply stated as his own teams best offensive player he won more titles than anyone bar MJ/Russel (and double the amount Kobe won).

08 was Kobes most important series ever. It still leaves him with one series win over Duncan without another top 10 player all time in his prime being the primary focus for the defence.

That's sort of the point though. The number 1 argument from a Kobe hater is that he couldn't win without Shaq. He still easily beat Duncan prime for prime without Shaq. And so did dirk in 2006.

So instead of only appreciating unselfishness you should also appreciate dominance. Michael Jordan was far more selfish than Tim Duncan. Yet he was still better.

[Axe]

He played at the 5 full-time since '09 and played at Center more than at PF in his prime as well. Even if you want to make that argument, prime KG was just as good and would have had the same career as TD had he been in his place in San Antonio instead of wasting his prime in Minnesota. KG won a DPOY and 4x rebounding titles and actually played at the 4 for 67% of his career compared to 36% for Duncan and was far more versatile on both ends of the court.

KB was voted by far the best player of the 2000s and smacked him around in the POs 4 out of 5 times in that decade.

Never won B2B titles (thank Kobe & Ray Allen for that one)

Won Finals MVP averaging 20.6 ppg on 47%TS (Manu was the real MVP & bailed them out) in '05

Lost in the 1st round as a #1 seed on a 61-win team and he was the main reason for that loss (Manu played with a broken arm but was still great offensively, TD got shut down bad and abused on the other end).

Was drafted to a team with prime D-Rob (instant contenders, Spurs tanked a season for him but were a 50-60-win team for most of the 90s with D-Rob), got Manu & TP once Robinson was washed, got Kawhi, Diaw, Green etc once Manu & TP fell off

Spurs still had the #1 defense and still won 61 games when he retired. Spurs continued their Playoffs streak without him & Kawhi. Spurs in '17 were in the WCF and up 20+ on the undefeated KD-Curry GS squad before Kawhi's injury without Duncan.

He's a top 10 ATG due to team success but gets vastly overrated by people who either hate KB or by people who haven't seen enough of his prime years.

And here he comes fellas. Lmao.

[DMAVS41]

For all kobes greediness in old age as compared to Duncan, his offensive peak was demonstrably higher. You guys want to talk Duncan being unselfish. How'd that work out in 2008 or 2001? When kobe obliterated him with his offense prime for prime?

Probably should've taken some extra shots if he was that good at it. His offense was never GOAT level though. His defense and intangibles were.

Losing to Kobe and Kobe/Shaq is nothing to be ashamed of. You act like Duncan should have won every series he played to prove something to you. How did it work out for Kobe/Shaq in 99 and 03? How did it work out for their entire careers? Duncan's unselfishness allowed the Spurs to have one of the best runs in NBA history from the day Duncan got there. Essentially 20 years of 50 plus wins and consistently contending.

We really going down that road? Duncan getting to play 8 years with a player as good as Shaq? Come on now...we all know who wins more.

[tpols]

It would simply depend on how stubborn or selfish that version of Duncan would be. Demanding 5 or so more shots a game is essentially what other stars have done or just did so and nobody told them to stop.

Of course not, Duncan had great help and coaching most of his career and that allowed him to have the success he did...he also was by far the most important factor for the sustained success the Spurs had. Both can be true.

My first post in this thread was saying it aint black and white either way. Tim Duncan can be an all time great player but also have had great help. The OP is making it seem like it only goes one way.

[DMAVS41]

That's sort of the point though. The number 1 argument from a Kobe hater is that he couldn't win without Shaq. He still easily beat Duncan prime for prime without Shaq. And so did dirk in 2006.

So instead of only appreciating unselfishness you should also appreciate dominance. Michael Jordan was far more selfish than Tim Duncan. Yet he was still better.

Again, losing to Kobe at his peak and Dirk at his peak...is nothing to be ashamed of. You keep saying this as if that is a knock on Duncan. Of course there are more ways to win...nobody is acting like there isn't.

You are talking about him losing to some of the best players of all-time playing their best basketball...and in 08...that Spurs team was hardly loaded and Manu was hurt in that series as well.

[ShawkFactory]

That's sort of the point though. The number 1 argument from a Kobe hater is that he couldn't win without Shaq. He still easily beat Duncan prime for prime without Shaq. And so did dirk in 2006.

So instead of only appreciating unselfishness you should also appreciate dominance. Michael Jordan was far more selfish than Tim Duncan. Yet he was still better.

My how things would be different if Manu didn’t foul dirk in game 7 in 06.

[DMAVS41]

Duncan also averaged 32 a game in the 06 series against Dirk. 5 more points per game...and I'm biased, but I actually thought Dirk was just as impactful as Duncan despite scoring less. But that is besides the point, doesn't really help your argument when you are saying he should of scored more, but he scored way more than the guy he lost to.

[Kblaze8855]

That's sort of the point though. The number 1 argument from a Kobe hater is that he couldn't win without Shaq. He still easily beat Duncan prime for prime without Shaq. And so did dirk in 2006.

So instead of only appreciating unselfishness you should also appreciate dominance. Michael Jordan was far more selfish than Tim Duncan. Yet he was still better.

He was about as dominant as he ever was in one of those losses you mention.




I’m game 7.

For nothing. Because Manu fouls Dirk shooting a layup down 3 with like 20 seconds:









That we hold such losses against him is just….sports. Fans don’t know what they want. Score and lose its empty and you were “easily” beat. Don’t score as much and win with teamwork…you weren’t dominant.

Need to win and score a lot even when the best path to winning is scoring less. Want him to limit his teammates so it looks harder? Need to win every year to justify playing team ball?

Is 5 rings not enough success?

[tpols]

My how things would be different if Manu didn’t foul dirk in game 7 in 06.

Dirk was working with far less talent and still won. From a superstar offense definitely matters more. Duncan is great but to act like he solely made the spurs? Nah... that would take away too much from popovich, and tony parker and manu... and even David Robinson who still had elite metrics in 1999. Not to mention healthy kawhi as well. OP is making it sound like he did everything himself. That simply isn't true.

[DMAVS41]

Dirk was working with far less talent and still won. From a superstar offense definitely matters more. Duncan is great but to act like he solely made the spurs? Nah... that would take away too much from popovich, and tony parker and manu... and even David Robinson who still had elite metrics in 1999. Not to mention healthy kawhi as well. OP is making it sound like he did everything himself. That simply isn't true.

I'm the biggest Dirk fan in the world...and Dirk was not working with "far less"....he had less, imo, but not far less.

Again though, Duncan scored way more than Dirk in that series. But you are remembering that Dirk was as good or better...I agree...but that makes our point. The ppg stats for any all-time great can be misleading at times because the circumstances might dictate scoring less to win more. Take that series...Dirk could have probably averaged 35 a game if that is what he set out to do. But they would have lost...and to Blaze's point...we'd be saying he didn't have enough help to win...but we live in the universe where he actually did win that series.

[SouBeachTalents]

My how things would be different if Manu didn’t foul dirk in game 7 in 06.

For a guy with 5 rings, Duncan got unlucky on several ocassions

Fisher's .4
Manu's foul
Allen's 3
CP3's GW

That's a play away from legitimately 2-3 more rings.

[ShawkFactory]

Dirk was working with far less talent and still won. From a superstar offense definitely matters more. Duncan is great but to act like he solely made the spurs? Nah... that would take away too much from popovich, and tony parker and manu... and even David Robinson who still had elite metrics in 1999. Not to mention healthy kawhi as well. OP is making it sound like he did everything himself. That simply isn't true.

Bit of a stretch.