Okay, another Kevin Durant year goes by, another failed run in the books...let's talk

[ArbitraryWater]

You won't find the answer to this question by copy/pasting publicly available statistics.

His greatness is not impaired by dropping a few points in TS% in the postseason compared to the regular season.

Further it entirely misses the point of measuring greatness by applying a narrow measure of efficiency. For thinking more broadly about a player's impact on the game, I strongly recommend the book "Thinking Basketball" by Ben Taylor, particularly his take on global impact of a player. You'll start to understand why teams led by Curry, LeBron, Giannis tend to win, and all-stars some of you are fanatical over don't win.

One element of global impact is a player's contribution to team defense; there are no statistics that capture this effectively so you have to watch the game. I've distilled key examples that show how Durant breaks his own team's defense:

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/sho...-cost-the-Suns

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/sho...-in-Particular

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/sho...-the-Suns-lost

Watch the video and examples to understand why Durant's teams struggle with defense.

Durant will keep attracting legions of casuals and selling sneakers because he does what fans pay to watch - have impressive drives to the basket. In the end, his shortcomings in the team aspect of the game (offense as well as defense; team offense entails setting screens for teammates, movement off the ball, commitment on each play whereas durant takes plays off and forces his team to go 4 on 5 vs the opposition), nullify his offensive performance. He won't win. Not without joining a team that can win without him.

Spot on.

[8Ball]

Another loss as favorite on a stacked team, beaten by a less talented but superior branded squad.

Probably would have been b2b first round exits had Leonard not gotten injured.

Won 2 playoff series since after 2018.

Another super pathetic showing in an eimination game, stat-masked by going off when the game was over. 2/11 at haftime down 30, then going 6/8 in the 2nd half with the game never going back to a 20 point game. Mister Unreliabe, still all these years later.

How many more excuses will he get? Media ranking him highly, players talking him up... he needs to entirely prove himself all over again. He has never done JACK SHIT outside of the GSW safe haven basketball utopyia.



Where is his legacy going? I dont rate him highly at all.

Kevin Durant's problem was playing during LeBron's era.


The media propped him up to be LeBron's equal and it never happened. Iso scorers can never be put on Bron's level.


Even in golden state the everyone considered Bron the better player and Durant was a bitch that joined a 73 win team. His teammate Draymond all but confirmed it.

[Naero]

I will join the hate thread :

Lets see stacked team : no bench / booker and him supposed to take out a top tier team.
lmfao
Even if they had antique CP3 and their 5 , still would not be enough.

Some of you guys act like a super star is a super hero... get your heads out your comic books.
/

I don't think people are penalizing Durant harshly for this loss itself. The bigger problem is the rest of his legacy, which is still incomplete.

Fair or not, he needs to lead a non-Olympian team to a championship to cement his career. Until then, his legacy is still being written, and losses like this will hurt it—if only because they're blown opportunities. He lost with several title-contending teams outside of Golden State throughout his career—often underpeforming in the process—and people will that against him until he cashes in on one of those opportunities.

Even this series was fairly winnable, and the Suns probably would've copped at least one more win (namely Game 2) if Durant shot better. Was it a tall task? Perhaps, but most legends have accomplished even harder feats at one point or another; it shouldn't be an overstretch for him to do it as well if he truly deserves comparisons to them.

The closest he came to that was in 2021, when he was a toe away from beating the eventual champions with an injury-ravaged supporting cast. I don't think KD gets enough credit for that, and it rarely seems to get mentioned in discussions like this. Years like that prove he is at least capable of leading non-superteams to a title.

There's a fine line between proving it's doable and actually doing it, however. If something like that actually materializes, people may recontextualize his two rings; otherwise, they'll (not so unreasonably) credit the Warriors for the fact that he's not in the conversation for the best ringless player of all time.

[tontoz]

Even this series was fairly winnable, and the Suns probably would've copped at least one more win (namely Game 2) if Durant shot better.

This series was not fairly winnable. Their two wins were both tight games at home when Booker shot 80% from the field. Every loss was double digits.

[SouBeachTalents]

I don't think people are penalizing Durant harshly for this loss itself. The bigger problem is the rest of his legacy, which is still incomplete.

Fair or not, he needs to lead a non-Olympian team to a championship to cement his career. Until then, his legacy is still being written, and losses like this will hurt it—if only because they're blown opportunities. He lost with several title-contending teams outside of Golden State throughout his career—often underpeforming in the process—and people will that against him until he cashes in on one of those opportunities.

Even this series was fairly winnable, and the Suns probably would've copped at least one more win (namely Game 2) if Durant shot better. Was it a tall task? Perhaps, but most legends have accomplished even harder feats at one point or another; it shouldn't be an overstretch for him to do it as well if he truly deserves comparisons to them.

The closest he came to that was in 2021, when he was a toe away from beating the eventual champions with an injury-ravaged supporting cast. I don't think KD gets enough credit for that, and it rarely seems to get mentioned in discussions like this. Years like that prove he is at least capable of leading non-superteams to a title.

There's a fine line between proving it's doable and actually doing it, however. If something like that actually materializes, people may recontextualize his two rings; otherwise, they'll (not so unreasonably) credit the Warriors for the fact that he's not in the conversation for the best ringless player of all time.

I don't think anyone actually disputes that. Despite his flaws, KD is, at worst, one of the 20-25 best players in the history of the league. And he did get very unlucky in 2021 that both Harden AND Kyrie got hurt, and that his toe was on the line on what would've been the series winner. For all the times he never quite played up to his potential, he was absolutely out of his mind that series, that was some of the most impressive basketball I've watched.

Giannis should give thanks every night that KD's toe was on the line, I could not even imagine the shit he would be getting right now if he was still ringless after losing to an 8 seed Good lord.

To me, that's been the most pivotal moment in the league over the last 5 or so years. The Nets likely don't break up, all those trades that went down never happen, the league would literally look completely different, and KD & Giannis would have wildly different reputations.

[ArbitraryWater]

This series was not fairly winnable. Their two wins were both tight games at home when Booker shot 80% from the field. Every loss was double digits.

The series not winnable because KD cant get the best out of a team and just does his iso thing while not contributing any other way.

Game 5 was a 1 possession game at HT, and they couldnt have won? Please.

[tontoz]

The series not winnable because KD cant get the best out of a team and just does his iso thing while not contributing any other way.

Game 5 was a 1 possession game at HT, and they couldnt have won? Please.

Yeah lets just ignore the fatigue/altitude thing.

[Naero]

This series was not fairly winnable. Their two wins were both tight games at home when Booker shot 80% from the field. Every loss was double digits.

I disagree. It's not like the Suns were an entire tier below their opponent.

They won both games in their homestand without CP3, and they probably win Game 2 (which was neck-and-neck until the last-few minutes) as well if Durant shoots up to par. Also, the double-digit differentials can be misleading; for example, do the Nuggets pull away so easily in Game 6 if Durant staunches the bleeding early on? Psychological momentum is a thing, after all, and it tilted in the Nuggets' favor partly because he shot so poorly early on (2-10, if I'm remembering correctly).

Were the Nuggets the logical favorites? Sure, and I'm not necessarily faulting KD for losing to them. I'm just saying it's not unreasonable to expect him to pull off an upset or some other equivalent feat in his career if he's to justify his all-time ranking, which seems to be around 10-15 by consensus. If he shoots as well as he did in the regular season (as an ATG of his rank should), then yes, the series was winnable enough.

[Naero]

I don't think anyone actually disputes that. Despite his flaws, KD is, at worst, one of the 20-25 best players in the history of the league. And he did get very unlucky in 2021 that both Harden AND Kyrie got hurt, and that his toe was on the line on what would've been the series winner. For all the times he never quite played up to his potential, he was absolutely out of his mind that series, that was some of the most impressive basketball I've watched.

Giannis should give thanks every night that KD's toe was on the line, I could not even imagine the shit he would be getting right now if he was still ringless after losing to an 8 seed Good lord.

To me, that's been the most pivotal moment in the league over the last 5 or so years. The Nets likely don't break up, all those trades that went down never happen, the league would literally look completely different, and KD & Giannis would have wildly different reputations.

When people claim he needs a historically loaded team to win it all, it sure sounds like they're disputing it. Many legitimately seem to doubt that he's capable of leading lower-tier champions, even though he's played just as well as, if not more than, others who've done it; they need to actually see it to believe it. In an ideal world, his near-miss 2021 carry-job would've done more for his legacy than his Warriors rings.

It takes some level of luck to do it and, yes, Giannis had no shortage of it in 2021. But you often also have to play great (as Giannis did) to capitalize on it, and KD failed to do so on other years. Once you get to the top-15 or -10 pantheon of ATGs, it takes more than one or two questionable rings to complete one's legacy (and this applies to Giannis as well) and drown out all the blackmarks.

[ArbitraryWater]

Yeah lets just ignore the fatigue/altitude thing.

lmao, ive never genuinely heard "altitude" being used as an excuse not to perform in Denver in the playoffs

thats wild. Maybe for a game. Not when its your 3rd game there and youve stayed a week.

[ArbitraryWater]

When people claim he needs a historically loaded team to win it all, it sure sounds like they're disputing it. Many legitimately seem to doubt that he's capable of leading lower-tier champions, even though he's played just as well as, if not more than, others who've done it; they need to actually see it to believe it. In an ideal world, his near-miss 2021 carry-job would've done more for his legacy than his Warriors rings.

It takes some level of luck to do it and, yes, Giannis had no shortage of it in 2021. But you often also have to play great (as Giannis did) to capitalize on it, and KD failed to do so on other years. Once you get to the top-15 or -10 pantheon of ATGs, it takes more than one or two questionable rings to complete one's legacy (and this applies to Giannis as well) and drown out the flameouts.

He does. 2021 is the outlier in that regard. And he still had Kyrie for 4 games. He balled out for the next 3 games, but it was just 3 games without them. 3 games. It doesnt mean he could have done the same in the ECF or Finals.

[tpols]

I don't think anyone actually disputes that. Despite his flaws, KD is, at worst, one of the 20-25 best players in the history of the league. And he did get very unlucky in 2021 that both Harden AND Kyrie got hurt, and that his toe was on the line on what would've been the series winner. For all the times he never quite played up to his potential, he was absolutely out of his mind that series, that was some of the most impressive basketball I've watched.

Giannis should give thanks every night that KD's toe was on the line, I could not even imagine the shit he would be getting right now if he was still ringless after losing to an 8 seed Good lord.

To me, that's been the most pivotal moment in the league over the last 5 or so years. The Nets likely don't break up, all those trades that went down never happen, the league would literally look completely different, and KD & Giannis would have wildly different reputations.

The butterfly effect is extremely powerful lol.



Awesome movie.

[tontoz]

I disagree. It's not like the Suns were an entire tier below their opponent.

They won both games in their homestand without CP3, and they probably win Game 2 (which was neck-and-neck until the last-few minutes) as well if Durant shoots up to par. Also, the double-digit differentials can be misleading; for example, do the Nuggets pull away so easily in Game 6 if Durant staunches the bleeding early on? Psychological momentum is a thing, after all, and it tilted in the Nuggets' favor partly because he shot so poorly early on (2-10, if I'm remembering correctly).

Were the Nuggets the logical favorites? Sure, and I'm not necessarily faulting KD for losing to them. I'm just saying it's not unreasonable to expect him to pull off an upset or some other equivalent feat in his career if he's to justify his all-time ranking, which seems to be around 10-15 by consensus. If he shoots as well as he did in the regular season (as an ATG of his rank should), then yes, the series was winnable enough.

Booker shot 80% from the field in the two home games they won.

Before the series even started i said that Gordon would give KD a hard time.

[SouBeachTalents]

lmao, ive never genuinely heard "altitude" being used as an excuse not to perform in Denver in the playoffs

thats wild. Maybe for a game. Not when its your 3rd game there and youve stayed a week.

I don't recall hearing about that once during the '09 WCF for example. That's been like the only relevant basketball to have taken place in Denver before this year

[tontoz]

Most teams don't have their star players playing 40+ minutes in Denver.