Why I don't blame Pippen for his views on Jordan and the Bulls.

[97 bulls]

Well I mean how long did they even get to play together? Year 1 is Jordan's rookie year, on a tire fire team that's not going to radically change that much over night.

Year 2, he's injured most of the regular season, so that's basically an entire development year gone down the toilet aside from him putting the NBA on notice by dropping 49 and then 63 on the Celtics in the playoffs as a "yeah, I'm for real" moment.

By the 3rd year the Bulls management had already let Woolridge walk for nothing and drafted Scottie Pippen that summer.

87-88 Bulls were a 50 win team with really Jordan + Oakley + Vincent as the best players and upset the Cavs in round 1.

I agree. But that's where you get those 1-9 arguments bro. When Jordanites start saying Jordan would've won with any decent players (it's really a backhanded insult to his teammates), then I'm gonna show proof that that's wrong.

[97 bulls]

I don't get why it's taking this long to understand one simple point. If Pippen couldn't get it done in terms of being "that guy" or the "alpha" at any point of his career - be it as a #1, #2, or #3 - then speculating that he would have been successful as a consistent #1 for 10-15 years is a waste of time.

Pippen showed he wasn't that guy for the majority of his career as a #2. You don't just discount that as if it's meaningless and assume otherwise. How does that make sense? I was clearly not an alpha dog as a VP, then I became the President and showed the same shit, but my supporters will cry "he needed more than 2 years!"

Then I go on to play for stacked teams later on in my career and fail there, but I needed to be the #1 in that situation to do what? Underachieve some more?

Pippen is one of the best sidekicks in league history. There's nothing wrong with that. That's an elite squad made up of some of the greatest names - Oscar, Hondo, Magic/Kareem, McHale, Baylor/Wilt, Penny, Kobe, Wade, etc. Now, Pippen may not be better than those guys, but he's still up there with some of the best sidekicks.

It's this circular argument. We covered this already. What does that guy look like? Scoring a bunch of points? Kinda hard to do when you're asked to run the offense, anchor the defense, be the best man defender, along with being the best scorer. And have to rebound as well. I asked Micku how many players in history were asked to so so much. He could only think of Lebron James. Now take away just one of those expectations of Pippen, why wouldn't he be able to score more points?

Even when he does have great games, it's never gonna get full credit because Jordan was there. Again, I alluded to the 93ECF. Pippen stepped up when it was clear Jordan didn't have it. So he did get it done. The nerve to say a player that contributed to 6 titles the way Pippen did couldn't get it done. Then talk about speculating? Come on Hoops

[warriorfan]

It's this circular argument. We covered this already. What does that guy look like? Scoring a bunch of points? Kinda hard to do when you're asked to run the offense, anchor the defense, be the best man defender, along with being the best scorer. And have to rebound as well. I asked Micku how many players in history were asked to so so much. He could only think of Lebron James. Now take away just one of those expectations of Pippen, why wouldn't he be able to score more points?

Even when he does have great games, it's never gonna get full credit because Jordan was there. Again, I alluded to the 93ECF. Pippen stepped up when it was clear Jordan didn't have it. So he did get it done. The nerve to say a player that contributed to 6 titles the way Pippen did couldn't get it done. Then talk about speculating? Come on Hoops

bro, you don’t know shit about basketball

give it up

[Soundwave]

I agree. But that's where you get those 1-9 arguments bro. When Jordanites start saying Jordan would've won with any decent players (it's really a backhanded insult to his teammates), then I'm gonna show proof that that's wrong.

There's like 6 morons on this board that think 1-9 is something interesting, no one cares about that on any other board.

With the general public if anything the fact that Jordan had to struggle early in his career only makes his legend bigger (this is what these morons stuck on this board don't understand). Sports is aspirational. People don't want to see someone just short cut their way to wins or win straight away with no struggle period. That's not applicable to their lives. They want to look at someone and say "see? He struggled too, but look what he did once he stuck with it and paid his dues".

People don't give a shit about a Nike commercial from 30 years ago, that's not why Jordan remains popular and fascinating to people. His story, his struggle, his mindset, the artistic quality of his play style is fascinating to people.

[Da_Realist]

There's like 6 morons on this board that think 1-9 is something interesting, no one cares about that on any other board.

With the general public if anything the fact that Jordan had to struggle early in his career only makes his legend bigger (this is what these morons stuck on this board don't understand). Sports is aspirational. People don't want to see someone just short cut their way to wins or win straight away with no struggle period. That's not applicable to their lives. They want to look at someone and say "see? He struggled too, but look what he did once he stuck with it and paid his dues".

People don't give a shit about a Nike commercial from 30 years ago, that's not why Jordan remains popular and fascinating to people. His story, his struggle, his mindset, the artistic quality of his play style is fascinating to people.

Exactly

[97 bulls]

There's like 6 morons on this board that think 1-9 is something interesting, no one cares about that on any other board.

With the general public if anything the fact that Jordan had to struggle early in his career only makes his legend bigger (this is what these morons stuck on this board don't understand). Sports is aspirational. People don't want to see someone just short cut their way to wins or win straight away with no struggle period. That's not applicable to their lives. They want to look at someone and say "see? He struggled too, but look what he did once he stuck with it and paid his dues".

People don't give a shit about a Nike commercial from 30 years ago, that's not why Jordan remains popular and fascinating to people. His story, his struggle, his mindset, the artistic quality of his play style is fascinating to people.

I agree. This isn't about bashing Jordan. I've always maintained that Jordans teamamtes has first few years didn't have to chops to be where they needed to be to actually compete for a championship.

But when I hear people say that Jordan could've won with any decent players, that he taught his teammates how to win, that he made his teammates. I just think it's a way to give more credit to Jordan than what needed to be had.

Like when Pippen played with Barkley. Barkley was never committed to winning. Barkley got by on sheer talent. I don't believe Jordan and Barkley could've coexisted together. When Pippen joined the Rockets, he said he brought over Tim Grover to help him and Barkley train for the upcoming season. He said Barkley was good for about a week, then he began to slack off. I remember the story Bobby Knight told about Barkley when he was the coach of the Olympic team in 84. He told Barkley that if he wanted to make the team, he'd have to lose weight. Not only did Barkley not lose weight, but he gained a few pounds. Even to this day Barkley felt he should've been on that team. He just didn't get it.

That's why I say there's more to winning than just talent. You need motivation, you need chemistry, you need luck. It's not just talent.

[Da_Realist]

"But Pippen..." was never a thing until well after MJ retired by people that weren't watching at the time. Good game, bad game...didn't matter. Pippen never stood out like that. We definitely recognized his great play and the things he contributed, no question about that. But he wasn't what many try to make him out to be today. I remember the media making a big deal about Pippen outscoring MJ in Game 5 of the 1991 NBA Finals. It was by like one or two points. But it was mentioned because it was a surprise. Unexpected. Now people can look back and say..."Hey, according to the box score, Pippen saved MJ in Game 3 of the 1993 series versus the Knicks! No Pip, no chip!" They weren't saying that at the time. They noticed the Bulls jumped all over the Knicks that game even though MJ struggled offensively. That was the story. Because MJ struggling offensively was unexpected. Not that it was needed. The Bulls led by 20 the whole game.

Pippen is rightly appreciated by MJ and the rest of the Bulls because he was important to the Bulls success. No one knows that better than the guys he played with. But this, "No Pip, no chip" and "1-9" stuff was made up by guys that weren't there watching at the time. No one suggested MJ couldn't win without Pippen until today's internet sleuths got ahold of the box scores and game results and noticed that MJ couldn't beat teams with 5 HOF'ers in his first couple of years in the league. Now Pippen is desperate enough to reach out to those idiots by spouting the same nonsense.

[97 bulls]

"But Pippen..." was never a thing until well after MJ retired by people that weren't watching at the time. Good game, bad game...didn't matter. Pippen never stood out like that. We definitely recognized his great play and the things he contributed, no question about that. But he wasn't what many try to make him out to be today. I remember the media making a big deal about Pippen outscoring MJ in Game 5 of the 1991 NBA Finals. It was by like one or two points. But it was mentioned because it was a surprise. Unexpected. Now people can look back and say..."Hey, according to the box score, Pippen saved MJ in Game 3 of the 1993 series versus the Knicks! No Pip, no chip!" They weren't saying that at the time. They noticed the Bulls jumped all over the Knicks that game even though MJ struggled offensively. That was the story. Because MJ struggling offensively was unexpected. Not that it was needed. The Bulls led by 20 the whole game.

Pippen is rightly appreciated by MJ and the rest of the Bulls because he was important to the Bulls success. No one knows that better than the guys he played with. But this, "No Pip, no chip" and "1-9" stuff was made up by guys that weren't there watching at the time. No one suggested MJ couldn't win without Pippen until today's internet sleuths got ahold of the box scores and game results and noticed that MJ couldn't beat teams with 5 HOF'ers in his first couple of years in the league. Now Pippen is desperate enough to reach out to those idiots by spouting the same nonsense.

I see your issue. When you say "Pippen didn't stand out like that", you're comparing Pippen to Jordan.

I think you need to go back and re-watch that ECF vs the Knicks. Pippen won that series for the Bulls. And it wasn't just game 3. See how you undermine Pippens contributions? Pippen hit the big shots and he made big defensive plays. The fact is that outside of game 4, Jordan just didn't have it. I believe he was hurt. Jordan shot 37% in game 1, 38% in game 2 (on 32 shots) he took more shots than the other 4 starters combined, 17% in game 3, then he exploded for 55 I'm game 4 and shot 60%, then he shot 46%, and finished off with 33%. He stunk up the joint offensively, DaRealist. His teammates bailed him out led by Pippen. Pippen was that guy that series not Jordan. Jordan just took the lions share of the shots. And everyone felt that the real championship was the ECF. Had that series been played in the NBA Finals, Pippen easily wins Finals MVP.


And understand the "but Pippen" argument didn't really become necessary until the Jordanites saw fit to begin bashing his teammates to put Jordan on an even higher pedestal.

[97 bulls]

Listen to the recap

Also, I believe Pippen hit 4 shots with the game clock about down to 3-4 seconds in game 6.

[Da_Realist]

I see your issue. When you say "Pippen didn't stand out like that", you're comparing Pippen to Jordan.

I think you need to go back and re-watch that ECF vs the Knicks. Pippen won that series for the Bulls. And it wasn't just game 3. See how you undermine Pippens contributions? Pippen hit the big shots and he made big defensive plays. The fact is that outside of game 4, Jordan just didn't have it. I believe he was hurt. Jordan shot 37% in game 1, 38% in game 2 (on 32 shots) he took more shots than the other 4 starters combined, 17% in game 3, then he exploded for 55 I'm game 4 and shot 60%, then he shot 46%, and finished off with 33%. He stunk up the joint offensively, DaRealist. His teammates bailed him out led by Pippen. Pippen was that guy that series not Jordan. Jordan just took the lions share of the shots. And everyone felt that the real championship was the ECF. Had that series been played in the NBA Finals, Pippen easily wins Finals MVP.


And understand the "but Pippen" argument didn't really become necessary until the Jordanites saw fit to begin bashing his teammates to put Jordan on an even higher pedestal.

MJ did shoot poorly for the majority of those games. It happens. Far less frequently with MJ than others, though. But was Pippen really the focal point of the Knicks defense that year? Was he doubled at all? Or did Pippen take advantage of the Knicks focus on MJ? What did Pippen do when he was the focal point of the Knicks defense the next year?

[97 bulls]

MJ did shoot poorly for the majority of those games. It happens. Far less frequently with MJ than others, though. But was Pippen really the focal point of the Knicks defense that year? Was he doubled at all? Or did Pippen take advantage of the Knicks focus on MJ? What did Pippen do when he was the focal point of the Knicks defense the next year?

Go back and listen to what Ahmad Rashad. He said the Knicks were saying the key to stopping the Bulls was Scottie Pippen. So yes, he was a focal point of the Knicks attention. That was the prevailing theme at that time. Jordan was gonna get his, but the key to beating the Bulls was to go after Scottie Pippen.

And to answer your question as to how Pippen did vs Knicks next year, he didn't have another player on that team that was on his level like Jordan had. It's clear that if he did, they'd beat the Knicks in 94.

As much as you hate to admit, DaRealist, Pippen was that guy some times. But even when he was, because you had Jordan taking so many shots, Pippens offensive numbers aren't gonna look as gaudy. Again, I have absolutely no problem with Jordan shooting as much as he did. He was their best offensive player.

And players can take over games in a myriad of ways. Dennis Rodman was the main reason the Bulls won the Championship in 1996 due to his rebounding. Not Jordan, not Pippen. Obviously, they contributed greatly.

That's why I'll always maintain the team concept.

[97 bulls]

One more thing. Too much stock in out into the who's getting double teamed argument. Teams generally DONT DOUBLE PLAYERS. Sure there are times, but for the most part, players are played straight up defensively. Players are doubled much more in the post or when the offensive player attempts to attack the basket. But that all players. That's why 3pt specialist are so important. Because they're a safety valve for the offensive player to prevent a player from being doubled. And if a players isn't a great shooter, they're instructed to slash to the basketball if your man leaves you to double another player. These are professional basketball players. Any of these players could put up points in a hurry if they're open.

[Da_Realist]

Go back and listen to what Ahmad Rashad. He said the Knicks were saying the key to stopping the Bulls was Scottie Pippen. So yes, he was a focal point of the Knicks attention. That was the prevailing theme at that time. Jordan was gonna get his, but the key to beating the Bulls was to go after Scottie Pippen.

And to answer your question as to how Pippen did vs Knicks next year, he didn't have another player on that team that was on his level like Jordan had. It's clear that if he did, they'd beat the Knicks in 94.

As much as you hate to admit, DaRealist, Pippen was that guy some times. But even when he was, because you had Jordan taking so many shots, Pippens offensive numbers aren't gonna look as gaudy. Again, I have absolutely no problem with Jordan shooting as much as he did. He was their best offensive player.

And players can take over games in a myriad of ways. Dennis Rodman was the main reason the Bulls won the Championship in 1996 due to his rebounding. Not Jordan, not Pippen. Obviously, they contributed greatly.

That's why I'll always maintain the team concept.

The team concept for MJ but not for Pippen. Did Pippen win 55 games by himself? Or was it the team? Didn't Pippen play with 2 All Stars and an All Rookie guy? MJ won with a team but Pippen didn't because I don't see you reference any contributions from Horace Grant, BJ Armstrong or Toni Kukoc (who hit numerous game winners that year, including...well, you know). So Pippen gets the lion share of the credit even though he played with a team of guys with championship experience and even had a new guy step in to knock down those game winners that Pippen couldn't. Team, team, team with MJ but Pippen, Pippen, Pippen for the 94 season. What myriad of ways did Pippen's teammates take over? I never see you mention any of that.

Down 0-2, MJ shot poorly but we still saw him contribute in other ways with a near triple double in a game the Bulls led by 20 the whole time. Sure his teammates played well and deserve credit. I've seen you talk about that all the time. But the next year with the Bulls down 0-2, we saw Pippen break down in the most crucial moment, have his leadership questioned and have the new guy step up to win the game. Pippen did in fact quit at the worst time. Did his teammates bail him out? I never see you talk about Pippen's teammates the way you talk about MJ's teammates. I believe Pippen's teammates bailed Scottie out in a way MJ's teammates were never forced to bail him out. It's about team, right? Let's keep it consistent. You should be the Kukoc guy especially. You should be sending him Christmas cards every year because he stepped up for the team when they were down 0-2 and the leader sat on the bench. Imagine trying to hit a game winner with the season on the line and that level of turmoil on the sidelines. Let's do a better job hyping up the team that won 55 games in 93-94.

[97 bulls]

The team concept for MJ but not for Pippen. Did Pippen win 55 games by himself? Or was it the team? Didn't Pippen play with 2 All Stars and an All Rookie guy? MJ won with a team but Pippen didn't because I don't see you reference any contributions from Horace Grant, BJ Armstrong or Toni Kukoc (who hit numerous game winners that year, including...well, you know). So Pippen gets the lion share of the credit even though he played with a team of guys with championship experience and even had a new guy step in to knock down those game winners that Pippen couldn't. Team, team, team with MJ but Pippen, Pippen, Pippen for the 94 season. What myriad of ways did Pippen's teammates take over? I never see you mention any of that.

Down 0-2, MJ shot poorly but we still saw him contribute in other ways with a near triple double in a game the Bulls led by 20 the whole time. Sure his teammates played well and deserve credit. I've seen you talk about that all the time. But the next year with the Bulls down 0-2, we saw Pippen break down in the most crucial moment, have his leadership questioned and have the new guy step up to win the game. Pippen did in fact quit at the worst time. Did his teammates bail him out? I never see you talk about Pippen's teammates the way you talk about MJ's teammates. I believe Pippen's teammates bailed Scottie out in a way MJ's teammates were never forced to bail him out. It's about team, right? Let's keep it consistent. You should be the Kukoc guy especially. You should be sending him Christmas cards every year because he stepped up for the team when they were down 0-2 and the leader sat on the bench. Imagine trying to hit a game winner with the season on the line and that level of turmoil on the sidelines. Let's do a better job hyping up the team that won 55 games in 93-94.

I never said Pippen won 55 games by himself. The argument seems to be rather or not Pippen could LEAD a team. And those two Allstars Pippen had? Were 3rd and 4th guys for Jordan. Why is Pippen expected to win with less help? We've addressed all these issues already. I'm not saying Pippens teammates in 94 were bums bro. That's what I'm hearing from the Jordanites.

Like when someone said that if Pippen were good enough to lead a team to a title, he should've won in o4 becaue Kerr, Kukoc (rookie Kukoc) and Wennington replaced Jordan lol. Yall can't get out of your own way. Would you trade Micahel Jordan for Steve Kerr, Toni Kukoc, and Bill Wennington?

And what do you expect me to say about BJ Armstrong and Horace Grant? Lol. I mean they're good players, but I don't see them as being good enough to be the best player on a Championship team. An important piece? Absolutely. The best player? No.

But if you go back and look at this thread, I have argued on behalf of the team.
I said Dennis Rodman was the main reason the Bulls beat the Sonics in 96. Not Jordan and not Pippen. See unlike you, I can admit when other players on the team step up.


I've said the reason the Bulls weren't as good in 95 was because they lost Horace Grant, Scott Williams, and Stacey King. I spent almost 3 pages going back and forth with a Jordanite about the importance of those 3 players.

But you want to talk about a double standard, even when Pippen wasn't "that guy", he always contributed to the team in different ways. But now, when I show you an example of when Pippen was that guy and Jorda. Didn't have it, you run to all the other things Jordan did? During the Bulls championship runs didn't he lead the team in everything but points? And, and, he led the playoffs in defensive rating twice.

Perhaps you need to just admit you're wrong.

[RogueBorg]

I spent almost 3 pages going back and forth with a Jordanite

Said the resident Pippenite.