If Lebron > MJ despite less rings & accolade, then KD can be > Lebron too

[nayte]

Jesus Christ

. Have you learnt now not to reply.

[ShawkFactory]

. Have you learnt now not to reply.

Well yea I've always known that

I don't mind responding occasionally. There are just sometimes where it gets so ridiculous that I simply can't continue.

[Johnny32]

KD at least scores more efficiently than lebron so he has that going for him. Jordan does nothing better than lebron. He scores less efficiently. He's a worse playmaker, a far worse and less versatile defender and rebounder. He has nothing left but nostalgia and bullshit.

[r15mohd]

per you own dumbfounded criteria of 10pts+ difference in 1st and 2nd option, KD could not break the barrier in either finals with GSW, therefore no he cannot be. unless you're now moving the goal posts to fit KD into that bubble lol

[LeGoat4Life]

KD is better than Lebron...

KD has accomplished a 2peat with full seasons, something Lebron will never accomplish with his super teams

[PeroAntic]

Jesus Christ

Indeed

[3ba11]

Well yea I've always known that

I don't mind responding occasionally. There are just sometimes where it gets so ridiculous that I simply can't continue.

that's fair but I'm curious.. What do you feel is the reason that Lebron's teams never reached perennial favorite status or that top dynasty level in 20 years and were perennial underdogs?

Was it lack of help? What position on the floor did he not have an all-timer fill at some point?

Was it uniquely-bad circumstances every time he lost?... This seems far less likely than his skillset over thousands of games showing an inferior brand of ball that routintely underachieves the roster and expectation..

53 wins with Love/kyrie is an underachievement.. He won 60 games once from 2011-2017 and 2020 or 2023 (all loaded casts yet only 1 for 9 in 60-win seasons - this is clear-cut underachievement of roster and expectation).

[PejaTheSerbSnip]

and Durant's skillset allowed the highest team ceiling possibly ever in 2017 and 2018 - a Luka or Lebron-style ball-dominator would've prevented the GOAT brand of ball and team celling that Durant's skillset allowed..

Well since you’ve become an expert at reading between lines, it bears mentioning that this can double as a concession that Jordan’s Bulls would lose to those Warriors, just as LeBron’s Cavs this.

I can live with that.

Also great to know that Durant was able to win after inheriting a 73 win team. Yes, the best team in the league adds one of the best scorers ever (and likely the 2nd-3rd best player in the league), then improves as a result. Nobody could’ve seen that coming.

[3ba11]

a concession that Jordan’s Bulls would lose to those Warriors, just as LeBron’s Cavs this.

Regardless of whether Jordan could win with his cast of 1 all-star teammate and zero franchise players, he would certainly win with an extra all-star teammate and 2 franchise player teammates (super-team) like Lebron had.

So it's a moot point whether Jordan could win with 1 all-star and zero 1b closers when he would certainly win with 2 all-stars and a 1b closer like Lebron had..

Btw, if an injured-Houston team nearly beat the KD-Warriors, why couldn't the 23' Nuggets, who match up perfectly with them and have a matchup advantage with Joker - aka the Warriors have no answer for Joker, whereas the Nuggets have a lot of guys to throw at KD like Bowen, Porter Jr, Gordon and more.. Meanwhile, Kawhi was up big-time on the KD Warriors in Game 1.

Also great to know that Durant was able to win after inheriting a 73 win team.


.

it takes superior skill and basketball ability to fit with other good players to the point of reaching unprecedented levels of dominance.. So KD's achievement of "goat team" (above Russel, MJ, Moses, Bird & Magic) is indeed a goat achievement and ridiculously-above Lebron's team ceiling capability, aka the goat choke and perennial underdog with Wade/Bosh/Allen, or 53 wins with Kyrie/love, or only 1 sixty-win season from 11-17' (super-teams) - 3 franchise guys on 1 team, yet they can't win 60 games.

Given this massive sample size of Lebron's low team ceiling, it's absurd to think he could have the actual GOAT TEAM like durant did.. This is quite intuitive and obvious.. For this wonderful reason (KD's skillset yields better fits, strategy & team ceilings), KD is superior to Lebron (since winning and accolades don't matter) - out of all the subjective reasons that people choose to make their guy GOAT, I think this is among the soundest and most solid ones out there.

[ShawkFactory]

that's fair but I'm curious.. What do you feel is the reason that Lebron's teams never reached perennial favorite status or that top dynasty level in 20 years and were perennial underdogs?

Was it lack of help? What position on the floor did he not have an all-timer fill at some point?

Was it uniquely-bad circumstances every time he lost?... This seems far less likely than his skillset over thousands of games showing an inferior brand of ball that routintely underachieves the roster and expectation..

53 wins with Love/kyrie is an underachievement.. He won 60 games once from 2011-2017 and 2020 or 2023 (all loaded casts yet only 1 for 9 in 60-win seasons - this is clear-cut underachievement of roster and expectation).

They certainly did.

[3ba11]

They certainly did.

Lebron's team was perennial Finals underdog - never a perennial favorite.. Perennial Finals underdog and loser (low team ceiling capability)

They were favorites on-paper (preseason favorites) but once the basketball started and everyone saw how bad the chemistry was, the team would invariably fall to underdog and need "more help"

Lebron's skillset of imposing spot-up roles yields perennial underdogs and Finals losers regardless of cast (20-21 in Finals excluding 07', 15', 18')

[PejaTheSerbSnip]

Regardless of whether Jordan could beat the 17' or 18' Warriors with his cast of 1 all-star teammate and zero franchise players, Jordan would certainly win with an extra all-star teammate and 2 franchise player teammates (super-team) like Lebron had.

IMV Jordan peaked higher, so he might stretch ‘17 to 6. That’s being generous, but I could see it.

Regardless, he loses with that defensive supporting cast. He loses by healthy amounts in both years. The differing margins are academic.

Being that you are one of those plebs that thinks there’s only one side of the ball, you’ll be sure to disagree, but those Cavs teams had next-to-no rim protection and bottom-third defensive ratings. Unless Jordan becomes Hakeem or David Robinson, the Cavs’ team defensive mismatch would remain.

Since you’ve complained in the past about the 90’s Bulls’ rim protection, I would imagine this would be a pain point. Let’s see the pivot.

So it's a moot point whether Jordan could win with 1 all-star and zero 1b closers when he would certainly win with 2 all-stars and a 1b closer like Lebron had..

LeBron had one go of things when the teams were somewhat evenly-matched (‘16), and he won without HCA.

Btw, if an injured-Houston team nearly beat the KD-Warriors,

A mix of variance and the Rockets being great on both sides of the ball. The Cavaliers were a terrible defensive team in 2018 and likely don’t make it to the finals had the Celtics been healthy.

why couldn't the 23' Nuggets, who match up perfectly with them and have a matchup advantage with Joker - aka the Warriors have no answer for Joker,

I have no earthly idea how the Nuggets success or lack thereof ties into this.

whereas the Nuggets have a lot of guys to throw at KD like Bowen, Porter Jr, Gordon and more..

I was told individual defence doesn’t matter. Why list individual defenders if individual defence doesn’t matter, 3ball?

Meanwhile, Kawhi was up big-time on the KD Warriors in Game 1.

And LeBron was a teammates missed free throw and another teammates mental error away from stealing a game too, with a weaker supporting cast, where he dominated the fourth quarter and overall game.

Lots of organizations can take many years to build chemistry and get to 60 wins like the 2015 Hawks, 2009 Cavs, 2007 Mavs and many more.. Otoh, it takes superior skill and basketball ability to fit with other good players to the point of reaching unprecedented levels of dominance.. So KD's achievement of "goat team" (above Russel, MJ, Moses, Bird & Magic) is indeed a goat achievement and ridiculously-above Lebron's capability,

Yes a 70 win team adding one of the best players in the league is a scary proposition.

Precisely why they were a -128 favourite to win the title before Durant even stepped foot on the court. Never had the league seen odds like these. Should be an interesting data point for someone that can’t get enough of preseason odds.

aka the goat choke and perennial underdog with Wade/Bosh/Allen,

Debunked many times over.

or 53 wins with Kyrie/love,

The Cavs were 50-19 when James played in ‘15, 3-10 when he was out.

Across those four years they were 4-23 when James sat (including an embarrassing 0-8 in ‘17).

I know a certain style of play can be difficult to maintain without the fulcrum of the offence being on the court, but that’s just pathetic. They did fine with LeBron on the court and frequently beat higher win teams (the ‘15 Hawks, the ‘16 Warriors, the ‘17 Celtics, the ‘18 Raptors).

In fact LeBron’s teams beat 8 higher-win teams across 7 finals runs (#1 in wins in ‘13, so that year was omitted).

Simple question that even you can answer: when a lower-win regular season team consistently beats higher-win regular season teams in the post season (8-3 from ‘11-‘18)…would this maybe indicate that these teams are better than their regular season win totals?

Are they, perhaps, looking to peak in the playoffs?

If not, to what do you attribute this strange discrepancy to?

Why are LeBron’s teams consistently beating higher-win teams (some of them being much higher-win teams) if they aren’t better than their win totals evince?

Any thoughts, 3ball?

or only 1 sixty-win season from 11-17' (super-teams) - 3 franchise guys on 1 team, yet they can't win 60 games.

Difficult when those teams flounder when he’s off the court.

Can’t be assed to check, but didn’t Bron play at a 57 win pace with Wade sidelined across four years?

Should be a nice gauge as to who drove their success in those regular seasons. But what do I know, all I’m interested in is telling the truth.

Given the massive sample size of Lebron's low team ceiling, it's absurd to think he could have the actual GOAT TEAM like durant did..

Harrison Barnes was the teams starting SF in ‘16, a year they won 73. They essentially replaced Barnes with Durant (while they lost Bogut, they did not lose much on the aggregate otherwise: Pachulia, McGee, Looney and West were solid front-line additions that made up for the loss of Bogut, Speights—who was a net-negative—and Ezeli).

So yeah, a 70 win team adding a historically great player will be great.

Just a smidge different from the teams LeBron has joined. The ‘11 Heat had similar top-heaviness but also maybe four playable rotation pieces in the PS. The ‘17 Warriors went 10-deep in the playoffs.

This is quite intuitive and obvious.. For this wonderful reason (KD's skillset yields better fits, strategy & team ceilings), KD is superior to Lebron

Durant has many skills. Making it work with a 70 win team isn’t one of the ones I’d highlight.

[PejaTheSerbSnip]

As an aside, I’m glad to see you recharged and open to debating me again. The constant flip-flopping about whether I’m worth your time is a bit manic, but I’ll take it.

I would recommend the Waking Up App if you lack the requisite mindfulness to get through one of these exchanges without rage-quitting or soliloquizing.

Hope you find your happy place. Let me know how I can help.

[Axe]

As an aside, I’m glad to see you recharged and open to debating me again. The constant flip-flopping about whether I’m worth your time is a bit manic, but I’ll take it.

[SouBeachTalents]

As an aside, I’m glad to see you recharged and open to debating me again. The constant flip-flopping about whether I’m worth your time is a bit manic, but I’ll take it.

I would recommend the Waking Up App if you lack the requisite mindfulness to get through one of these exchanges without rage-quitting or soliloquizing.

Hope you find your happy place. Let me know how I can help.

Don't think that's possible for him unfortunately. Esp not after the beating you gave him in the last thread