I've been accused of lying but

[3ba11]

Yes, you did indeed lie in the other thread about Jordan doubling LeBron’s scoring output in the 4th quarters of the finals runs you chose, as well as lying about him being more efficient.


Jordan: 9.8 ppg on 53.01 TS%

LeBron: 7.2 ppg on 55.67 TS%

^both claims are now proven lies.


You also made the claim that Jordan had higher offensive ratings in these selected quarters, but have adduced nothing to support it.


So yeah. Lied (about at least 2 of the 3 claims I’ve examined).

Funny how nearly every specious claim that has an objective answer turns out to be a lie. Sure makes you a reliable narrator on the more nebulous, subjective things.

Who cares if I picked the wrong years - if you can't refute that Jordan is a vastly superior clutch performer and all you can do is make statistical corrections that don't change the conclusion, then what value is your post?

If I posted the right years, then I guess you have no purpose on this forum.. You're an editor I guess and doing a fine job, but otherwise agree with everything I say - you agree that Jordan was vastly superior in the clutch and you agree that Lebron sucks off-ball compared to Mike or Curry or Bird or Kobe... and you also agree that he lacks fundamentals like Duncan, so he can't have great brand of ball and Finals records like all these guys do.. it's bball101 and you agree with all of it.. you simply like to make statistical corrections since you can't come up with actual takes yourself (requires a higher level than your secretarial understanding)

But then you ignore important things like ORTG or efficiency per possession, where Lebron's was inferior to MJ's.. Meanwhile, when given the same defensive attention, Lebron can't hit the broadside of a barn and has woat shooting efficiency

[3ba11]

.

Finals 4th quarter

Old Jordan (97-98')'......... 9.8 on 53 ts... 0.35 TO
Prime Bron (07-20')......... 7.2 on 55 ts... 1.03 TO

* 36% more scoring for Jordan vs maximum defensive attention (carrying scoring load), while Lebron had equal-scoring partners to attract equal defensive attention (shooting efficiency boost) and averaged 3 times as many turnovers (lower efficiency per possession)

* Old Jordan doubled or tripled Lebron's scoring in the 4th quarter for the 2011, 2014 and 2017 Finals (near-doubling in 17')

* Lebron was a 4 TO per game player in the 4th quarter of Finals.. He also had many series where he did far worse than that, such as the 2009 ECF where he turned into a 12 TO per 48 minutes of clutch-time - so when the game got close, Lebron turned into the biggest turnover machine ever

[tontoz]

[PejaTheSerbSnip]

Who cares if I picked the wrong years -

Another lie. You didn’t pick specific years for LeBron. You claimed these numbers were for his entire career.

if you can't refute that Jordan is a vastly superior clutch performer and all you can do is make statistical corrections that don't change the conclusion, then what value is your post?

The value is in exposing that you lied.

I have no issue with you or anyone else thinking Jordan is the GOAT (hell I don’t even find it terribly objectionable for people to think LeBron is either, as much as I disagree).

That’s never been why I’ve chosen to bounce your head around like a pinball. It’s the fact that you lie and exaggerate about the extent of LeBron’s failures.

You can keep moving heaven and earth to swivel things around with red herrings and misdirection, thinking it’ll tire me out. It still hasn’t gotten close to happening.

If I posted the right years, then I guess you have no purpose on this forum..

Again, you did not post specific years. It wasn’t a mere clerical error. You thought this was LeBron’s career finals average in fourth quarters.

but otherwise agree with everything I say -

Not really. I’ve debunked hundreds of specific claims you’ve made.

For that matter, you don’t even appear to agree with much of what you say, considering the bipolar progression of your all-time lists.

Would someone be a dear and post them?

you agree that Jordan was vastly superior in the clutch

Vastly? No. There’s only so much separation that can be created between the two.

That is, unless we’re confining “clutch” only to last possessions. In which case, sure.

and you agree that Lebron sucks off-ball compared to Mike or Curry or Bird or Kobe...

Just as you would surely agree that Jordan sucks at rebounding compared to Rodman…different players have different strengths. Comparing one players weakness to another players strength doesn’t strike me as a balanced way to appraise their merits, but we both know this already.

and you also agree that he lacks fundamentals like Duncan,

No? Where do I compare their fundamentals?

Quotes please.

so he can't have great brand of ball and Finals records like all these guys do..

We can go through each finals series and debate which of them LeBron should’ve won, and why.

Jordan wasn’t at a talent deficit in at least 5 of his 6 finals. ‘93 is debatable, as Barkley had a better cast on the offensive side of the ball. That about covers it.

Should we debate that one again? Would be a fun to bully you in that topic once more, for old times sake.

you simply like to make statistical corrections since you can't come up with actual takes yourself

Actually I’ve corrected (read: disproven) hundreds of specific claims you’ve made.

It doesn’t take a keen eye for detail to do it, so I’m definitely not special in that sense. It really is just that easy.

(requires a higher level than your secretarial understanding)

The sheer volume of deception has been high-level, yes.

But then you ignore important things like ORTG or efficiency per possession,

Go ahead and provide evidence that Jordan’s offensive rating was higher in the quarters you selected. There’s no reason to believe it was. I’ll be waiting.

.

Finals 4th quarter

[SIZE=3]Old Jordan (97-98')'......... 9.8 on 53 ts... 0.35 TO
Prime Bron (07-20')......... 7.2 on 55 ts... 1.03 TO

Now do their rebound and assist numbers? Believe Jordan amassed a fairly modest 14 assists in 11 4th quarters.

Very unsurprisingly, you don’t round up for LeBron — his TS% was actually 55.67%.

Also, best I can tell it’s actually quite fortunate that PBP tracking started in ‘97, because Jordan was pretty statistically underwhelming in the 4th quarters of the ‘96 finals. I remember reading he scored 4 points in 16% shooting in the final three games. Perhaps I’ll have a watch some day soon and confirm.

* 36% more scoring for Jordan vs maximum defensive attention (carrying scoring load), while Lebron had equal-scoring partners to attract equal defensive attention (shooting efficiency boost) and averaged 3 times as many turnovers (lower efficiency per possession)

* Old Jordan doubled or tripled Lebron's scoring in the 4th quarter for the 2011, 2014 and 2017 Finals (near-doubling in 17')

All addressed in the previous thread. Feel free to quote and address the specifics I made.

* Lebron was a 4 TO per game player in the 4th quarter of Finals..

Source?

And can you compare their rebounding/assist numbers?

[3ba11]

First you got their scoring numbers wrong.

I got the years wrong, not the numbers

old Jordan doubled or tripled Lebron's 4th quarter scoring in the Finals for 2011, 2014 or 2017

In these years, Lebron averaged 5 ppg in the 4th just like I said, or even worse (3 ppg in 11' or 14')

Then you pivoted to shooting efficiency. I manually checked, and confirmed this was incorrect too.

Where did you get the true shooting data for Lebron's 4th quarters in the Finals?

And your numbers showed that the true shooting was close even though Lebron faced half the defensive attention as Jordan (lebron had equal-scoring partners while jordan doubled everyone's scoring in many Finals, aka all eyes on him) - so Lebron's shooting efficiency underperforms compared to MJ when we consider his vastly lower scoring burden, lower defensive attention (equal-scoring partners) and 3 times as many turnovers in the 4th.

Anytime that Lebron had "all eyes on him" defense (carrying scoring load) like Jordan faced - he almost always lost and had worst-ever efficiency.

Then, after being proven wrong twice, in separate posts, you thereafter confidently declared that Jordan had a higher offensive rating, despite providing no evidence.

.

Finals 4th quarter

Old Jordan (97-98')'......... 9.8 on 53 ts... 0.35 TO
Prime Bron (07-20')......... 7.2 on 55 ts... 1.03 TO

* 36% more scoring for Jordan vs maximum defensive attention (carrying scoring load), while Lebron had equal-scoring partners to attract equal defensive attention (shooting boost) and averaged 3 times as many turnovers (lower efficiency per possession)

* Old Jordan doubled or tripled Lebron's scoring in the 4th quarter for the 2011, 2014 and 2017 Finals (near-doubling in 17')

* Lebron is a 4 TO per game player in the 4th quarter of Finals (Westbrook).. He also had many series where he did far worse than that, such as the 2009 ECF where he turned into a 12 TO per 48 minutes of clutch-time - so when the game got close, Lebron turned into the biggest turnover machine ever

No, you weren’t merely “wrong”, because anyone that’s been proven wrong this many times would show more circumspection instead of blindly side-arming shit against a wall and hoping it’ll stick.

Nothing I've said is wrong - see the above responses

Nothing that I've ever said about Lebron is wrong or exaggerated - bad fits and point guard stats (hold-time and assisted rate) confirm that Lebron doesn't play 5 positions and is actually an abnormal ball-dominator for his size/position that imposes spot-up roles.. These spot-up roles never developed a single young player into meaningful producer in 20 years (zero young player development), while also preventing elite chemistry or strategic capacity/coaching, thereby yielding perennial underdogs regardless of cast or on-paper talent advantage (preseason favorite status).

This is my thesis and you already know that each point is backed up by significant statistical proof - nothing you have ever said has refuted this or backed me off any of this - so kudos for accomplishing nothing..

These were, by and large, low-leverage minutes (in 2014 and 2017 fourth quarters).

Okay but Lebron only averaged between 3.0 and 7.7 in the 4th quarter of the Finals from 2011-2014 (carried compared to Jordan) and:

From BBallBreakdown on youtube:

LeBron James scored 1.1 points a minute when the Heat were getting blown out by 15+ BUT, when the Heat made the games closer <15, LeBron was scoring 0.65 points a minute. This shows that he was scoring much more when the Spurs bench was in and the Heat were down 15+ and it shows that he was scoring much less when the Spurs starters were in.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y02r-Dz5cMw

Since Lebron lacks expert jumpshooting skill (which frequently gets the big, tough buckets for teams), he's forced to rely on a predictable rim attack that gets stifled in many ways when the game gets tight (i.e. clog paint, foul, etc).. So he's more of a pure athlete than a hooper, aka he lacks great touch or moves and therefore needs all-time scoring help like Kyrie, Wade or AD, while also needing perennial all-stars and franchise guys at 3rd option..

[Phoenix]

Seriously.

[PejaTheSerbSnip]

I got the years wrong, not the numbers

old Jordan doubled or tripled Lebron's 4th quarter scoring in the Finals for 2011, 2014 or 2017

In these years, Lebron averaged 5 ppg in the 4th just like I said, or even worse (3 ppg in 11' or 14')





Where did you get the true shooting data for Lebron's 4th quarters in the Finals?

And your numbers showed that the true shooting was close even though Lebron faced half the defensive attention as Jordan (lebron had equal-scoring partners while jordan doubled everyone's scoring in many Finals, aka all eyes on him) - so Lebron's shooting efficiency underperforms compared to MJ when we consider his vastly lower scoring burden, lower defensive attention (equal-scoring partners) and 3 times as many turnovers in the 4th.

Anytime that Lebron had "all eyes on him" defense (carrying scoring load) like Jordan faced - he almost always lost and had worst-ever efficiency.






.

Finals 4th quarter

Old Jordan (97-98')'......... 9.8 on 53 ts... 0.35 TO
Prime Bron (07-20')......... 7.2 on 55 ts... 1.03 TO

* 36% more scoring for Jordan vs maximum defensive attention (carrying scoring load), while Lebron had equal-scoring partners to attract equal defensive attention (shooting boost) and averaged 3 times as many turnovers (lower efficiency per possession)

* Old Jordan doubled or tripled Lebron's scoring in the 4th quarter for the 2011, 2014 and 2017 Finals (near-doubling in 17')

* Lebron is a 4 TO per game player in the 4th quarter of Finals (Westbrook).. He also had many series where he did far worse than that, such as the 2009 ECF where he turned into a 12 TO per 48 minutes of clutch-time - so when the game got close, Lebron turned into the biggest turnover machine ever






Nothing I've said is wrong - see the above responses

Nothing that I've ever said about Lebron is wrong or exaggerated - bad fits and point guard stats (hold-time and assisted rate) confirm that Lebron doesn't play 5 positions and is actually an abnormal ball-dominator for his size/position that imposes spot-up roles.. These spot-up roles never developed a single young player into meaningful producer in 20 years (zero young player development), while also preventing elite chemistry or strategic capacity/coaching, thereby yielding perennial underdogs regardless of cast or on-paper talent advantage (preseason favorite status).

This is my thesis and you already know that each point is backed up by significant statistical proof - nothing you have ever said has refuted this or backed me off any of this - so kudos for accomplishing nothing..






Okay but Lebron only averaged between 3.0 and 7.7 in the 4th quarter of the Finals from 2011-2014 (carried compared to Jordan) and:

From BBallBreakdown on youtube:

LeBron James scored 1.1 points a minute when the Heat were getting blown out by 15+ BUT, when the Heat made the games closer <15, LeBron was scoring 0.65 points a minute. This shows that he was scoring much more when the Spurs bench was in and the Heat were down 15+ and it shows that he was scoring much less when the Spurs starters were in.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y02r-Dz5cMw

Since Lebron lacks expert jumpshooting skill (which frequently gets the big, tough buckets for teams), he's forced to rely on a predictable rim attack that gets stifled in many ways when the game gets tight (i.e. clog paint, foul, etc).. So he's more of a pure athlete than a hooper, aka he lacks great touch or moves and therefore needs all-time scoring help like Kyrie, Wade or AD, while also needing perennial all-stars and franchise guys at 3rd option..

All addressed.

[PejaTheSerbSnip]

See here:

You didn’t select specific years originally. You claimed this was over the course of LeBron’s entire finals career. Keep squealing.



Already addressed, in the very posted you quoted:


The whole point of examining 4th quarter statistics is that they’re supposed to shine a light on how a player did in high-leverage situations…


…which makes it patently silly to use the ‘14 and ‘17 4th quarters as proof of anything.

Most of these games weren’t close going into the fourth. LeBron’s fourth quarter play wasn’t any more consequential than his 1st-3rd quarter play.

These were, by and large, low-leverage minutes.




Addressed already. No, you didn’t get the years confused. You didn’t pick individual years for LeBron originally.

Additionally, even this dataset is skewed, but not for the reason you think: “Old Jordan” includes ‘96, a year where PBP tracking wasn’t available. His 4th quarter stats in those finals were quite unimpressive, going off memory.

Will likely speed-watch every 4th quarter and prove it conclusively — stay tuned.

If your retort is that I’m including three 4ths (Games 4-6) in a series that was all-but-won by then, congrats: we are now on the same page about not all 4th quarters being alike.

Another free lesson, courtesy of yours truly.




Manually tallied them.



Indeed. Jordan had the scoring edge (though part of it is by virtue of playing more minutes on average in his 4ths, so it marginally dwindles if we’re going by per-minute), while LeBron had the efficiency and rebounding/assists edge.



Literally addressed these exact words, several times now. Will include it once more:


Against the 9th and 17th ranked defences, on teams where he had ample help in the other facets of the game (defence, rebounding, playmaking) to allow him to focus on his strengths unabated.


If you want to argue the relatively uncontroversial position that Jordan is the Finals GOAT, do that. Just don’t lie and exaggerate constantly.

(Who am I kidding, please continue to do alll of the above lmao.)



so Lebron's shooting efficiency underperforms compared to MJ when we consider his vastly lower scoring burden, lower defensive attention (equal-scoring partners) and 3 times as many turnovers in the 4th.

Anytime that Lebron had "all eyes on him" defense (carrying scoring load) like Jordan faced - he almost always lost and had worst-ever efficiency.







Already addressed:


Now do their rebound and assist numbers? Believe Jordan amassed a fairly modest 14 assists in 11 4th quarters.

Very unsurprisingly, you don’t round up for LeBron — his TS% was actually 55.67%.

Also, best I can tell it’s actually quite fortunate that PBP tracking started in ‘97, because Jordan was pretty statistically underwhelming in the 4th quarters of the ‘96 finals. I remember reading he scored 4 points in 16% shooting in the final three games. Perhaps I’ll have a watch some day soon and confirm.





Which specific, falsifiable claim have I failed to address?



All addressed in the thread you’ve scurried away from, and all are irrelevant to the specific claims I’ve debunked in this thread. Will be sure to link the previous thread, though.



Thankfully, we can verify that this is false: we have about 70 pages worth of me going line-by-line for practically every specific claim you’ve made, with me, to your eternal chagrin, getting the last word in.

Please feel free to clear the backlog of posts you have yet to respond to there.




…beyond addressing several of these discrepancies and being quite forthright about calling the ‘11 finals a huge legacy-dampener for LeBron…I’ve also never called him a better finals performer. These are all non-sequiturs.

Feel free to stick to the topic at hand, and address the specific counters I’ve broached.





None of this is a response to the specific points I’ve made, but you can keep copy and pasting things we’ve already discussed, which are irrelevant to the thread.

[3ba11]

Jordan wasn’t at a talent deficit in at least 5 of his 6 finals.

There's a depth of understanding on this specific topic that you're lacking here.. I will try to help you with it.

Forget the Finals for a moment... the majority of teams in the league DESTROYED the Bulls from the 3 thru 12 spots because they had actual scoring options that were all-nba or multiple-time all-stars at 3rd option, and also guys with all-star experience at 4th, 5th or 6th option.

Here's an example... After Ewing and Starks, the Knicks had 5 guys that were equal or superior to Horace - this includes Mason (1x All-NBA), Mark Jackson (1x all-star and all-time floor general), X-Man (1x all-star that destroyed Pippen in the 92' ECSF and dominated the 87' Lakers in the WCF as 1st option), Oakley (1x all-star), Charles Smith (14/7 and 1.5 bpg).. They also had Greg Anthony and Gerald Wilkins, who would've been the 4th to 6th best players on the Bulls.

So the Knicks' roster was FAR SUPERIOR to the Bulls and that's just 1 example of a 2nd Round or ECF opponent.. Most teams have similar talent edges like the Pistons, Pacers or Magic.

After Isiah and Dumars, the Pistons had 3x all-stars like Laimbeer, Aguirre or Rodman that were easily superior to Horace, while Vinnie Johnson, Edwards and Salley were superior role players than the Bulls had (Paxson, Cartwright, etc).. And look at the 96' Magic or 98' Pacers - after Reggie Miller and Rik Smits, the Pacers had Chris Mullin, Mark Jackson, Derrick McKey (all-defender), Jalen Rose (24 ppg in 2000 Finals), Best and the Davis Brothers - that's completely STACKED compared to the Bulls.. The 96' Magic were also more stacked.

Jordan wasn’t at a talent deficit in at least 5 of his 6 finals.

Now let's look at the Finals.

After Magic and Worthy, Vlade and Sam Perkins were sophisticated bigs that destroyed Horace Grant as a player and in the 91' Finals..

Meanwhile, AC Green was a 1x all-star that was more comparable to Horace... Byron Scott destroys Paxson... Elden Campbell came off the bench in that stacked frontcourt but compares well to Horace.. It's a joke.. the Lakers had good players and scorers after Magic and Worthy, while the Bulls had role players and robots.

The 92' Blazers and 93' Suns had the biggest talent edges over the Bulls... Ainge and Cliff Robinson were coming off the Blazers' bench, while they had 4 guys with significant all-star experience in the starting lineup along with 20 ppg Jerome Kersey to round out the stackage... And you already agree on the 93' Suns.. The 96' Sonics obviously destroy the Bulls with All-NBA Schrempf at 3rd option (similar to the Knicks Mason or the Heat's Mashburn - most contenders had all-nba or multiple-time all-stars at 3rd option).

TLDR: Jordan faced talent deficits throughout the playoffs, while it's uncertain whether Lebron's super-teams ever faced a talent deficit - they remain the only team during that time period to have 3 franchise players on 1 team (super-team)

[3ba11]

Jordan sucks at rebounding compared to Rodman

Who led the Bulls in defensive rebounding for the 1997 Playoffs? Jordan or Rodman?

In the 97' Playoffs, Jordan led the Bulls in defensive rebounding, assists, steals and he was co-leader in BPG with pippen....

He did all this while carrying the scoring load throughout the playoffs (defeating max defensive attention), which Lebron never did.. Lebron never carried any category except the one you never want to carry - assists - hogging the assists, aka no ball movement and therefore massive team assist deficits in the Finals

Btw, Rodman averaged 3/8 for the entire 97' Playoffs and wasn't the starter for the 98' Playoffs - Jordan won those 2 titles IN SPITE of him, and he already 3-peated with a 12/9 player at PF (horace) - so Jordan didn't need anyone to dominate or play well for him to win titles.

[ShawkFactory]

That's the part that I never understood with the whole scoring option thing. If the 5th best player on the team is primarily a scorer..how is that better than if the 5th best player on the team is best at defense or rebounding? Particularly if the team has a GOAT scorer and another very good one at the top.

Kevin Love as a 3rd option was never going to score 25 points a game. That would be impossible regardless of who he's playing with ever, and wouldn't be necessary because if he's 3rd option that means there are 2 better scorers already. So why does him being able to score 25 as a first option make him more valuable as a 3rd option than someone like Draymond, who provides things that the top 2 scorers don't?

It's wild how often team construction is conveniently ignored. People making arguments act like they'd rather have Monta Ellis as the 4th best player on a team than Joakim Noah. By and large you want your role players to fill specific roles...not to do things that your stars already do, but worse at it.

[3ba11]

Source for the 4th quarter turnovers ?

NBA.com

https://www.nba.com/stats/player/254...und=4&Period=4


here's lebron's turnover averages in the 4th quarter of each Finals:


2007: 1.8
2011: 1.2
2012: 1.2
2013: 0.9
2014: 0.6
2015: 0.7
2016: 1.2
2017: 0.4
2018: 1.0
2020: 1.3



Here's Jordan's

1997: 0.5
1998: 0.2


So Lebroh averages 1.03 turnovers in the 4th quarter of Finals games (4 TO per game player, aka Westbrook), while the GOAT averages 0.35 turnovers in the 4th (1.4 TO per game player in clutch-time, aka bowdown).

Since Lebron averages 3 times as many turnovers in the 4th (1.03 to 0.35) without a commensurate advantage in shooting efficiency and FAR lower actual scoring production, we can conclude that Lebron has lower ORTG in the 4th quarter of the Finals, which is commensurate with his regular season or playoff careers.

Now where's your source on the true shooting in the 4th quarter of Finals?

[3ba11]

That's the part that I never understood with the whole scoring option thing. If the 5th best player on the team is primarily a scorer..how is that better than if the 5th best player on the team is best at defense or rebounding? Particularly if the team has a GOAT scorer and another very good one at the top.

Kevin Love as a 3rd option was never going to score 25 points a game. That would be impossible regardless of who he's playing with ever, and wouldn't be necessary because if he's 3rd option that means there are 2 better scorers already. So why does him being able to score 25 as a first option make him more valuable as a 3rd option than someone like Draymond, who provides things that the top 2 scorers don't?

It's wild how often team construction is conveniently ignored. People making arguments act like they'd rather have Monta Ellis as the 4th best player on a team than Joakim Noah. By and large you want your role players to fill specific roles...not to do things that your stars already do, but worse at it.

Love doesn't need to average 25 but he should be somewhere around 20 like many other winning 3rd options and he should be AVAILABLE to step up and provide a big scoring punch whenever needed just like Manu, Allen, Klay, Worthy, and many more - unfortunately, Love wasn't available because he'd been reduced to spot-up shooter and sometimes a 12 ppg player - his capacity to step up has been taken away.. He gave his prime years to bron-ball and then bron bounced but Love rebuilt a contender just like the Heat did.. It should also be mentioned that Jamison averaged 20 as third option in 2005 but only 15 alongside Lebron as 2nd option in 2010 (Jamison was averaging 22 right before joining Bron).

Btw, ball movement and rebounds can be done by role players, while scoring is done by stars.

Scoring is the star category and the more of it that someone needs, the more help and salary cap they require - a GM's nightmare is needing a bunch of star scoring help because their franchise player is a spotty jumpshooter and isn't a "closer"... Otoh, they have no problem finding cheap role players that can move the ball or rebound, so they prefer a great jumpshooter that can carry the scoring load (sufficient brand at high volume to beat top teams).

[ShawkFactory]

Love doesn't need to average 25 but he should be somewhere around 20 like many other winning 3rd options and he should be AVAILABLE to step up and provide a big scoring punch whenever needed just like Manu, Allen, Klay, Worthy, and many more - unfortunately, Love wasn't available because he'd been reduced to spot-up shooter and sometimes a 12 ppg player - his capacity to step up has been taken away.. He gave his prime years to bron-ball and then bron bounced but Love toiled away and rebuilt a contender just like the Heat did.

Btw, ball movement and rebounds can be done by role players, while scoring is done by stars.

Scoring is the star category and the more of it that someone needs, the more help and salary cap they require - a GM's nightmare is needing a bunch of star scoring help because their franchise player is a spotty jumpshooter and isn't a "closer"... Otoh, they have no problem finding cheap role players that can move the ball or rebound, so they prefer a great jumpshooter that can carry the scoring load (sufficient brand at high volume to beat top teams).

Lol we've had this exact argument before and you've repeated yourself while ignoring what I said, but I'll repeat myself again: All of the third options that you listed are elite jumpshooters/spot up shooters. In order to score 20ppg or be explosive in a 3rd option role you have to be because you won't be creating your own offense very much.

You actually helped my point. I'd rather my 3rd option be Klay or Celtics Ray Allen than Kevin Love for SURE. Again...even if Love would be more dominant as a first.

[3ba11]

Lol we've had this exact argument before and you've repeated yourself while ignoring what I said, but I'll repeat myself again: All of the third options that you listed are elite jumpshooters/spot up shooters. In order to score 20ppg or be explosive in a 3rd option role you have to be because you won't be creating your own offense very much.

And apparently you're forgetting my responses that Worthy and even Jamison were 20 ppg third options, so this idea that only jumpshooters do it is wrong.

Jamison literally proved that he could get 20 as third option, but then got 15 as 2nd option alongside Lebron

The idea that only jumpshooters can score a lot as 3rd option is based on nothing but your delusion and desire for it to be true

And Love is a jumpshooter, yet he was still reduced to nothing alongside Lebron.