I've been accused of lying but

[Axe]

Op sucks balls.

[ShawkFactory]

And apparently you're forgetting my responses that Worthy and even Jamison were 20 ppg third options, so this idea that only jumpshooters do it is wrong.

Jamison literally proved that he could get 20 as third option, but then got 15 as 2nd option alongside Lebron

The idea that only jumpshooters can score a lot as 3rd option is based on nothing but your delusion and desire for it to be true

Ah yes and if you remember my response to that (I'm sure you do) it this: James Worthy, while not taking many 3s WAS a very good jump shooter in the vein or guys like Jordan, Dantley, King, etc. in the 80s. He was also by and large not a 3rd option. By the time his scoring numbers increased, Kareem had regressed.

Jamison was a lucky regular season one-off who's 20ppg 3rd option scoring didn't remotely translate in the playoffs. That and the Wizards that year were dead last in team assists, a number you regularly tout to determine excellent ball movement. So that one is lucky for you.

Plus Magic is someone you regularly denigrate because he did the same thing as Lebron, saying that he was greatly helped out by dominant scorers...and frequently highlight Worthy to make your case (who you have maintained is better than Pippen).

So yea...these are lucky one-offs for you (incorrect at that) and do nothing to help your narrative whatsoever.

[PejaTheSerbSnip]

There's a depth of understanding on this specific topic that you're lacking here.. I will try to help you with it.

Forget the Finals for a moment... the majority of teams in the league DESTROYED the Bulls from the 3 thru 12 spots because

Interesting.

Pray tell, if you took Ewing off the Knicks, would they have won 55 games in the 90’s?

How about the bulk of the other great teams? Do they win 55 games without their best player?

they had actual scoring options, all-nba or all-star players at 3rd, 4th, 5th or 6th option.

So, more accolade-gazing?

Here's an example... After Ewing and Starks, the Knicks had 5 guys that were equal or superior to Horace - this includes Mason (1x All-NBA), Mark Jackson (1x all-star and all-time floor general), X-Man (1x all-star that destroyed Pippen in the 92' ECSF and dominated the 87' Lakers in the WCF as 1st option), Oakley (1x all-star), Charles Smith (1x all-star).. They also had Greg Anthony and Gerald Wilkins, who would've been the 4th to 6th best players on the Bulls.

Several things to pick apart here (the fact that I specifically cited finals opponents notwithstanding).

Firstly, not all of these players even overlapped. For instance, Smith and Jackson were never on the roster at the same time. Neither were Wilkins and Jackson.

Anthony overlapped with Wilkins and Smith for a whopping one whole year.

McDaniel only played with the Knicks in ‘91-‘92. In that year they were 51-31 and barely got by a declining Pistons team in the first round.

If I were to employ the same tactic, I can easily lump Kukoc in with Grant (only played one year), Grant with Rodman (didn’t play at all), etc, all to inflate how many great players were on that team. I can plausibly then say that the Bulls had Grant, Pippen, Armstrong, Kukoc, Harper and Kerr.

But of course, they never employed all of those players at the same time.

It’s an extremely deceptive tactic but I could do it, and it would be identical to what you’re doing.

Secondly, Smith’s best years were with the Clippers.

Here were his statistics with the Knicks:

11/5/1 on 46/26/77, .107 WS/48, -0.8 BPM.

Importantly, he was not an all-league defender like Grant was.

For as stacked as these squads supposedly were, a full-strength Knicks team only won 55 games 4 times in the 90’s, and barely scraped by a Jordan-less Bulls in 7.

Also interesting that Oakley is now being given his flowers; when compared to Ilgauskas, he was a mere role player.

All very interesting. More interesting stuff below:

So the Knicks' roster was FAR SUPERIOR to the Bulls

You list all of these players, buffet-line style, without accounting for one very important thing: none of them ever led the Knicks to an elite offensive rating in their golden years.

‘91-‘92: 12th of 27 in ortg
‘92-‘93: 22nd of 27
‘93-‘94: 16th of 27
‘94-‘95: 16th of 27
‘95-‘96: 21st of 29
‘96-‘97: 25th of 29

…these are rates comparable to (and actually slightly worse than) the Pippen-led Bulls

They were elite on the side of the ball that you constantly devalue: defence.

Take Ewing off that Knicks team and they plummet even further.

and that's just 1 example of a 2nd Round or ECF opponent.. Most teams have similar talent edges like the Pistons, Pacers or Magic.

Let’s go through them.

After Isiah and Dumars, the Pistons had 3x all-stars like Laimbeer, Aguirre or Rodman that were easily superior to Horace, while Vinnie Johnson, Edwards and Salley were superior role players than the Bulls had (Paxson, Cartwright, etc)..

They were most decidedly not superior to the Bulls’ cast when they hit championship form, which is the operative comparison here. I have always maintained Jordan’s casts were underwhelming before ‘91. Alas, that’s not what we’re discussing.

Anywho, the Pistons won 50 games in ‘91 and their supporting cast was badly, badly out-played by Jordan’s.

To wit:

Pippen - 22/8/5/3/2 on 56% TS and a 20.2 Gsc, a truly remarkable all-around performance
Grant - 14/8/2 on 71% TS and great defence
Cartwright - 10/5 on 59% TS
Armstrong - 7/3/4 on 65% TS

Feel free to compare them to the Piston’s #2-5’s (whoever you believe they are, given that some are torn between Dumars and Isiah for #1).

Please do, and tell me what you find.

And look at the 96' Magic or 98' Pacers - after Reggie Miller and Rik Smits, the Pacers had Chris Mullin, Mark Jackson, Derrick McKey (all-defender), Jalen Rose (24 ppg in 2000 Finals), Best and the Davis Brothers - that's completely STACKED compared to the Bulls..

Again, several things to address:

Rose’s performance in the 2000 finals had zero bearing on how he played in 1998. He was a 6th man (if that). He didn’t blossom until ‘99-‘00.

Secondly, let’s exclude Miller and Jordan. Here’s what remains of their respective rotations:

Pippen-Kukoc-Longley-Harper-Kerr-Wennington

vs.

Smits-Davis-Davis-Jackson-Davis-Mullin (an ancient one mind you)-Rose-McKey

I do not see a big difference on the aggregate whatsoever. Whichever way you lean, it was more than enough help for the GOAT to win with.

The 96' Magic were also more stacked.

Perhaps if you steadfastly hold to there only being one side of the ball, as is your wont.


The ‘96 Bulls were one of the best defensive teams of all time. The ‘96 Magic were middling defensively.

Additionally, Grant played 30 minutes in the entire series. Anderson missed a game as well. They had to rely on Brooks Thompson and Anthony Bowie for minutes, two fringe players who should’ve seen their loads lighten in the playoffs.

The Bulls, conversely, had a clean bill of health.

Which of the following statements were false? Why?

Now let's look at the Finals.

Let’s.

[PejaTheSerbSnip]

After Magic and Worthy, Vlade and Sam Perkins were sophisticated bigs that destroyed Horace Grant as a player and in the 91' Finals..

Another clever tactic: just omit #2 options when we know Pippen outplayed Worthy, LOL:

Pippen - 21/9/7/2/1 on 53% TS, at worst the third best player in the series

Worthy - 19/3/2 on 50% TS, missed a game

Yeah, no vested interest in starting from the third options.

Again, I’ll ask the time-honoured question: where, specifically, have I erred?

Moving on, you failed to acknowledge Grant and Paxson’s great play in those finals:

Grant - 15/8/2/2 on 65% TS
Paxson - 14/2/3 on 67% TS

Compares pretty nicely with Divac and Perkins:

Divac - 19/9/2/2 on 61% TS
Perkins - 17/8/1 on 51% TS

…not seeing this big talent deficit. At all.

Again, every other contender had actual scorers and multiple time all-stars

These are just labels that you choose to reify. They carry no inherent value. How did all of these players actually play in the series’ that are under examination? How do they fit with their #1’s? All of these are more germane to the question of who had the better supporting cast.

Byron Scott destroys Paxson...

Scott in the ‘91 finals: 5/2/2 on 40% TS in 35 mpg.

Elden Campbell came off the bench in that stacked frontcourt but compares well to Horace..

This was Campbell’s rookie year, and he notched 7 minutes a contest in the regular season. He only suited up in 3 of the 5 games, blossomed some three years later and was never the defensive presence or glue guy that Grant was.

We might as well say a 40 year old Parish was unfair help for Jordan in ‘97. After all, his minutes per game was higher than rookie Campbell’s.

Rookie Pippen came off the bench for the Bulls too, must’ve been due to them having an embarrassment of riches

This is one of your more embarrassing comparisons. Please keep going.

It's a joke.. the Lakers had good players and scorers after Magic and Worthy, while the Bulls had role players and robots.

All addressed. How did all of these players perform? Why was Pippen omitted?

The 92' Blazers and 93' Suns had the biggest talent edges over the Bulls...

The ‘93 Suns were likely the closest, and had a better offensive supporting cast. That’s as far as I’ll go. At very worst, Jordan had a better supporting cast in 4 or 5 of his 6 finals, and more than enough to win in all 6 given his GOAThood.

Ainge and Cliff Robinson were coming off the Blazers' bench,

Yet you never make this same defence of Harper, who went from 22 ppg on a crappy team to 7-8 on a good one, just as Ainge saw a large decrease in volume when hopping from a 23 win perennially losing Kings team to a finals contender?

Why is that? I wonder.

Ainge was, at that point, a decent 6th man. He is not a star on another team.

while they had 4 guys with significant all-star experience

in the starting lineup along with 20 ppg Jerome Kersey to round out the stackage...

They had a good and balanced roster. Regardless, the Bulls had a sizeable edge in the #2 and #3 slots. Some of these players (like Williams) made their last all-star games years before ‘92, while Duckworth was essentially an all-star in name only, who regressed after ‘91 and averaged 11 points on 10 shots a game.

Try again.

And you already agree on the 93' Suns..

What I said was that they likely had the more potent offensive supporting cast. That’s the best steelman I can muster up.

The 96' Sonics obviously destroy the Bulls with All-NBA Schrempf at 3rd option (similar to the Knicks Mason or the Heat's Mashburn - most contenders had all-nba or multiple-time all-stars at 3rd option).

‘fraid not.


Kemp-Schrempf-Hawkins-Perkins-McMillan-Askew

and

Pippen-Rodman-Kukoc-Harper-Kerr-Longley

Are comparable rotations. More than enough for the GOAT to get by with.

TLDR: Jordan faced talent deficits throughout the playoffs, while it's uncertain whether Lebron's super-teams ever faced a talent deficit -

TIL it was unclear that LeBron faced a chasmal talent deficit in, among others:

- 2007
- 2014 (oldest, worst rebounding team in the league).
- 2015 (both Love and Irving were out).
- 2017 (as clear a finals defensive mismatch as you’ll get).
- 2018 (ditto, and now with a historic offensive gap to boot).

[PejaTheSerbSnip]

Who led the Bulls in defensive rebounding for the 1997 Playoffs? Jordan or Rodman?

Very predictably, you flew past my point: any player comes off worse when you pit a weakness of theirs with another players strength.

Whether it’s LeBron’s off-ball ability being compared to Jordan’s, or Jordan’s rebounding being compared to Rodman’s, or Kobe’s long-range shooting compared to Curry’s…it’s an incredibly insidious way of framing comparisons. That you can cherry-pick a specific time Jordan did a subset of a thing better than Rodman (Per 100 rebounding #’s in the ‘97 playoffs: Rodman 16.8, Jordan 10.5) doesn’t obscure this.

Keep trying.

In the 97' Playoffs, Jordan led the Bulls in defensive rebounding, assists, steals and he was co-leader in BPG with pippen....

He did all this while carrying the scoring load throughout the playoffs (defeating max defensive attention), which Lebron never did..

And Pippen outpaced Jordan 20 out of 24 times in the non-scoring statistical categories during their 6 finals together.

There is more to basketball than shooting.

Lebron never carried any category except the one you never want to carry - assists - hogging the assists, aka no ball movement and therefore massive team assist deficits in the Finals

LeBron led the Cavs in all 5 major statistical categories in the ‘16 finals, against a 73 win team.

Btw, Rodman averaged 3/8 for the entire 97' Playoffs and wasn't the starter for the 98' Playoffs -

While being pivotal to their success in ‘96, utterly putting the clamps on Mourning in ‘97 (something very heavily attested to, and something you’ve consistently ignored), and frustrating Malone across two finals series.

To be a broken record: more to basketball than scoring. We will explore this further.

Additionally, you do not apply this same standard of ****-retentive nitpickyness to Jordan’s opponents, and never will.

You flatly listed a bunch of Pistons players in ‘91, when they played poorly.

You listed Scott in the ‘91 finals, who put up 5 points on 30% shooting in 35 minutes per game.

Or how about Hornacek?

12 ppg on 51% TS in the ‘97 finals, 11 ppg on 50% TS in the ‘98 finals.

Did the Jazz push the series close in-spite of the poor play of their third best player?

How about Stockton, who averaged 10 points a game in the ‘98 finals.

Literally no one on the Jazz cleared 11 points a game in the ‘98 finals.

Uniform standards to be applied? No way, no how.

[jlip]

Is Peja the old poster formerly known as tharegul8r?

[PejaTheSerbSnip]

NBA.com

https://www.nba.com/stats/player/254...und=4&Period=4


here's lebron's turnover averages in the 4th quarter of each Finals:


2007: 1.8
2011: 1.2
2012: 1.2
2013: 0.9
2014: 0.6
2015: 0.7
2016: 1.2
2017: 0.4
2018: 1.0
2020: 1.3



Here's Jordan's

1997: 0.5
1998: 0.2


So Lebroh averages 1.03 turnovers in the 4th quarter of Finals games (4 TO per game player, aka Westbrook), while the GOAT averages 0.35 turnovers in the 4th (1.4 TO per game player in clutch-time, aka bowdown).

Since Lebron averages 3 times as many turnovers in the 4th (1.03 to 0.35) without a commensurate advantage in shooting efficiency and FAR lower actual scoring production,

Thank you.

So, in sum:

- LeBron had a higher TS%
- LeBron had far higher assist and rebounding rates
- Jordan didn’t come close to doubling his scoring output, although does have the scoring advantage
- Their exact offensive ratings are still anyones guess

All of this is a massive U-turn from the very plainly-worded initial statement that “Old Jordan” (with ‘96 omitted, which I’ll rectify soon) doubled LeBron’s finals scoring output on better efficiency.

we can conclude that Lebron has lower ORTG in the 4th quarter of the Finals, which is commensurate with his regular season or playoff careers.

No, we very much can’t. Jordan amassed 23 turnovers in 12 games over those two finals (where his combined ortg was 112), so his 4th q turnover stats amount to being a rounding error in the grand scheme of things. On the other side of the coin, LeBron’s finals turnover rate isn’t unduly higher than his *overall* finals tpg, so there’s no skew to speak of. Purely from eyeballing things, I’d estimate Jordan’s offensive rating to be anywhere from 111-114, while LeBron’s is somewhere from 113-115.

If I’m off, feel free to calculate their offensive ratings, and show your work.

Now where's your source on the true shooting in the 4th quarter of Finals?

I just told you, and told you multiple times before then: I manually went through each game and tallied it. Feel free to do the same for their offensive ratings.

Not sure how many more times I need to repeat myself, but if these last few months are any indication, I won’t tire of it.

[PejaTheSerbSnip]

Is Peja the old poster formerly known as tharegul8r?

Nah, no alts. Never found this place particularly interesting, due in large part to the oldheads. Finally squeezed some fun out of my membership. I post on a Tennis Forum and used to frequent Baseball Fever, but that about covers it.

The average basketball fan, in all honesty, kind of blows…don’t mean to sound elitist, but it is what it is. Doesn’t help that I was spoiled by baseball being my first sporting love, where the fans tend to be ten-fold more informed and sober-minded.

[PejaTheSerbSnip]

Kevin Love as a 3rd option was never going to score 25 points a game. That would be impossible regardless of who he's playing with ever

Yeah, this.


Even the off ball-heavy (at least relatively speaking) triumvirate of Durant, Curry and Thompson couldn’t all average 25 apiece in ‘16-‘17. Both Curry and Durant saw dips in their scoring from the previous year, and Durant’s late-season injury is part of what pushed Curry to cross the 25 point barrier (he was at 24.8 before that).

But these jokers expect a trio of LeBron/Wade/Bosh or LeBron/Love/Kyrie to all come close to maintaining their averages. Lunacy.

[ShawkFactory]

Yeah, this.


Even the off ball-heavy (at least relatively speaking) triumvirate of Durant, Curry and Thompson couldn’t all average 25 apiece in ‘16-‘17. Both Curry and Durant saw dips in their scoring from the previous year, and Durant’s late-season injury is part of what pushed Curry to cross the 25 point barrier (he was at 24.8 before that).

But these jokers expect a trio of LeBron/Wade/Bosh or LeBron/Love/Kyrie to all come close to maintaining their averages. Lunacy.

I don't think anyone actually expects it once they dive a little deeper. But the Lebron trolling either prevents them from wanting to or being able to. Either way...meh.

[3ba11]

- LeBron had a higher TS%
- LeBron had far higher assist and rebounding rates
- Jordan didn’t come close to doubling his scoring output, although does have the scoring advantage
- Their exact offensive ratings are still anyones guess

Ewing had higher rebounding rates... So did Karl Malone..

It means nothing and isn't a valid response to Lebron's vastly inferior scoring and clutch ability.

Regarding the assists, we know that Lebron's teams had massive assist deficits in the Finals, so who cares about personal APG - it means literally nothing when comparing 2 players, unless one of the players isn't a good passer.. Super-high APG often means Luka-style ball-domination and inferior brand of ball.. It's completely irrelevant to comparing 2 players.

But if you want to compare APG, we know that MJ had higher APG for the first 9 years of their playoff career (85-93' vs 06-14') before Curry's spacing era made offense easier for everyone.. Jordan was a great passer and peaked as a passer higher than Lebron did (91' Finals..... or the pre-Curry era in the playoffs where MJ averaged more APG.... or 30/9/11 at PG is better than anything Lebron did in the RS)

so his 4th q turnover stats amount to being a rounding error in the grand scheme of things.

It's a rounding error that Jordan averaged 0.35 turnovers in the 4th compared to 1.03 for Lebron?

So Lebron averaged 3 times as many turnovers, but that's a rounding error?

You're drowning.

Lebron's vastly higher turnovers gives him lower ORTG when we consider his far lower scoring production with only a small TS edge - this dynamic of high turnovers and lower scoring without much edge in TS is the story of Lebron's career compared to Jordan.. You're trying to defy this and it's absurd. .

I’d estimate Jordan’s offensive rating to be anywhere from 111-114, while LeBron’s is somewhere from 113-115.

That would be contrary to their entire regular season and playoff careers - Jordan's ORTG was always higher and around 118 because he scored MUCh more with similar true shooting and far lower turnovers.. I'm informing you of the statistical record here - there's no refuting this.

So you're just on Lebron Delusion planet right now...

You probably thought that you were winning the debate.. Now you're drowning by trying to argue that a STAPLE for jordan over lebron (ortg) infact goes in Lebron's favor in the 4th quarter (despite the massive turnover gap and massive scoring deficit with similar TS).. You're done

[Jasper]

3ball is very insightful

[3ba11]

I don't think anyone actually expects it once they dive a little deeper. But the Lebron trolling either prevents them from wanting to or being able to. Either way...meh.

You guys are just making something up and then arguing against it because you can't argue against the actual point being made

No one said that 3rd options should average 25

But they can average 18-22 and have star roles - that's the key - Manu, Allen, Worthy, Jamison - these guys had star roles at 3rd option, while Lebron's 3rd options are reduced to spot-up role, so their ability to step up has been taken away and his teams never reach anywhere NEAR their expectation.. .3 franchise guys on 1 team = "not 6, not 7" expectation but Lebron went 2/4 including goat choke and record loss - that's the worst anyone can do.. and he was a miracle away from 1/4.

[ShawkFactory]

You guys are just making something up and then arguing against it because you can't argue against the actual point being made

No one said that 3rd options should average 25

But they can average 18-22 and have star roles - that's the key - Manu, Allen, Worthy, Jamison - these guys had star roles at 3rd option, while Lebron's 3rd options are reduced to spot-up role, so their ability to step up has been taken away and his teams never reach anywhere NEAR their expectation.. .3 franchise guys on 1 team = "not 6, not 7" expectation but Lebron went 2/4 including goat choke and record loss - that's the worst anyone can do.. and he was a miracle away from 1/4.

Settle down

Jamison was no star.

Also, please give me a playoff series where any of those guys you listed scored 20 ppg while being the 3rd leading scorer on the team. I'm sure Worthy did it maybe once while Magic and Kareem scored 20 themselves. But I'd like to see one for Manu, Allen, or Jamison. Just ONE.

[PejaTheSerbSnip]

Ewing had higher rebounding rates... So did Karl Malone..

And so did LeBron James.

It means nothing and isn't a valid response to Lebron's vastly inferior scoring and clutch ability.

What it

Regarding the assists, we know that Lebron's teams had massive assist deficits in the Finals, so who cares about personal APG -

The Bulls were out-assisted in both finals against the Jazz.

LeBron’s teams were out-assisted in 4 out of 10 finals, and only badly so when they were facing a massive talent deficit, which the Bulls never faced…so yet again this is not a like-for-like comparison. The fact of the matter is that Jordan did cede some playmaking duties in ‘98.

it means literally nothing when comparing 2 players, unless one of the players isn't a good passer.. Super-high APG often means Luka-style ball-domination and inferior brand of ball.. It's completely irrelevant to comparing 2 players.

But if you want to compare APG, we know that MJ had higher APG for the first 9 years of their playoff career (85-93' vs 06-14')
before Curry's spacing era made offense easier for everyone..

Already addressed in full, and this is a lie.

Assist rates didn’t skyrocket in 2015…LeBron’s per-100’s did. That’s why omitted them.

Team-wide APG’s increased significantly in ‘19, NOT before then, and were considerably higher from ‘85-‘93 than they were from ‘06-‘14.

See here:

https://www.basketball-reference.com..._per_game.html

The vast majority of the crap you spew, blessedly, is only a one-minute fact-check away from being debunked.

Jordan was a great passer and peaked as a passer higher than Lebron did (91' Finals..... or the pre-Curry era in the playoffs where MJ averaged more APG.... or 30/9/11 at PG is better than anything Lebron did in the RS)

It is absolutely one of the GOAT finals series.

It's a rounding error that Jordan averaged 0.35 turnovers in the 4th compared to 1.03 for Lebron?

So Lebron averaged 3 times as many turnovers, but that's a rounding error?

You're drowning.

You need to book an appointment with a neurologist.

No, dummy, that’s not the rounding error.

The rounding error is the extent to which the turnover differential contributes to their respective 4th quarter offensive ratings.

Jordan averaged a 112ortg in ‘97 and ‘98, and only about 1.9 tpg overall. His 4 turnovers across those 11 fourth quarters is 0.364, which would translate to 1.5 across 4 quarters.

LeBron, conversely, does not seek a huge turnover spike in 4th quarters.

All of which is to say that their respective offensive ratings are very much up for debate.

Lebron's vastly higher turnovers gives him lower ORTG when we consider his far lower scoring production with only a small TS edge -

Prove it. I will concede any mistakes I make. To the naked eye it does not appear as if Jordan has a higher offensive rating in fourth quarters in ‘97 and ‘98 than LeBron does in all finals 4th quarters…despite James facing a set of opponents that had, on average, a lower defensive rating, all the while contending with a talent deficit most of the time (which is again starkly opposed to Jordan).

this dynamic of high turnovers and lower scoring without much edge in TS is the story of Lebron's career compared to Jordan.. You're trying to defy this and it's absurd. .

Covered many, many times over. Prove it.

That would be contrary to their entire regular season and playoff careers - Jordan's ORTG was always higher and around 118

This isn’t even a good red herring. Are you losing steam already? So early?

Firstly, LeBron’s career play-off ortg is 117. Jordan’s is 118.

Secondly, this is completely irrelevant to their respective finals ratings. Jordan’s finals offensive rating was 112 combined, in ‘97 and ‘98.

Total irrelevancies.

because he scored MUCh more with similar true shooting and far lower turnovers.. I'm informing you of the statistical record here - there's no refuting this.

Refused effortlessly, I’m sorry to say.

You probably thought that you were winning the debate.. Now you're drowning by trying to argue that a STAPLE for jordan over lebron (ortg)

Louder, for those in the back:

LeBron’s career playoff ortg is 117 (drtg is 103).

Jordan’s career playoff ortg is 118 (drtg is 104).

In the span of time between their first and last finals appearance:

Jordan: 118 ortg

LeBron: 117 ortg


Over the course of their primes:

Jordan, ‘88-‘93: 120 ortg

LeBron, ‘09-‘20: 119 ortg


It isn’t difficult to gerrymander comparisons whichever way a bad-faith artist wants the conversation to go.