So turns out MJ also has the GOAT plus-minus?

[Johnny32]

muh childhood hero lil Mikey would never pad his jock, I mean his stats

Selfishness, Part I: Since switching to point guard for the Chicago Bulls, Michael Jordan has become statistic conscious. He has started checking with statisticians to see how close he is to a triple-double. He had a string of seven consecutive triple-doubles broken Friday night.

“The guys at the scorer’s desk let me know what I need,” Jordan said.

So, too, do the Bulls’ assistant coaches.

“They keep reminding me when I get back to the huddle,” Jordan said. “They say, ‘You need three more of this. You need four more of that.’ ”

Jordan is trying to win over voters for the league’s most valuable player award.

“If the way I’m playing now doesn’t convince them I’m a complete player, then I guess nothing will,” Jordan said.



Embarrassingly delusional middle aged fat man is an embarrassingly delusional middle aged fat man.

[Full Court]

Selfishness, Part I: Since switching to point guard for the Chicago Bulls, Michael Jordan has become statistic conscious. He has started checking with statisticians to see how close he is to a triple-double. He had a string of seven consecutive triple-doubles broken Friday night.

“The guys at the scorer’s desk let me know what I need,” Jordan said.

So, too, do the Bulls’ assistant coaches.

“They keep reminding me when I get back to the huddle,” Jordan said. “They say, ‘You need three more of this. You need four more of that.’ ”

Jordan is trying to win over voters for the league’s most valuable player award.

“If the way I’m playing now doesn’t convince them I’m a complete player, then I guess nothing will,” Jordan said.



Embarrassingly delusional middle aged fat man is an embarrassingly delusional middle aged fat man.

Here, educate yourself with this thread and then cry it out:

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/sho...consensus-GOAT

[John8204]

Who's in the top twenty for this list?

[dankok8]

Lebron stans on RealGM are losing their minds over this. Always fun to watch!

[Wardell Curry]

Imagine when they first calculated PER - everyone probably gathered in a room when they were going to reveal the numbers - many people probably thought Lebron would be #1 and they surely groaned loudly when MJ was #1

Yeah man I just looked it up and you're right. John Hollinger came up with PER in 1995 when LeBron was 10 years old and he was so angry at the outcome of Jordan being ahead of the 4th grade version of LeBron that he eventually quit his website and joined ESPN so that he could shill for LeBron in 2005 once Jordan was safely out of the league and retired for good.

Not only that but I thought I'd clear the air here and say that you're definitely not in dire need of some psychiatric help. You are the most well adjusted poster here.

[guy]

This post is reflective of why I have referred to MJ stans as a "cult." In this post you're literally making an unnecessary and meaningless distinction between playing for regular "stats" (i.e. scoring) and playing for "advanced stats", just to (maybe unconsciously) protect the image of your basketball hero, MJ, depicting him as some basketball purist who only played to win and not expressly for personal stats also. Just stop it.

No. He didn't play for advanced stats, since they didn't exist, but he did often selfishly play for the stats that did exist and were important in his era. It is documented over and over again that MJ was conscious of his scoring numbers and deliberately, for the majority of his career, played so that he would be the individual leader in that stat. Both Sam Smith in his Jordan Rules book from the early 90's and Phil Jackson recently, clearly stated that MJ wanted to make certain that he continued to lead the league in scoring each season. For his career, his 22.9 fga per game are the second most in NBA history behind Elgin Baylor. The man led the league in field goals taken every full and healthy season of his career other than his rookie season and the '89 season. You don't do that basically every year unless you're aware of your stats and are playing for them.

Then in the '89 season, it was again documented and verified by his on admission that he was playing for stats as he was routinely checking the scorers' table to see how close to a triple double he was.

Finally, during his last season with the Wizards as the season was coming to a close, and he was in danger of losing his all time career scoring lead to Wilt, ESPN was routinely showing how many points he needed to continue to average to maintain his lead. Anybody who was watching then knows this. Somehow, he averaged just the right amount of points to maintain his all time career scoring lead over Wilt by less than .

Stop the blind Jordan hero worship justifying his conscious intentional stat padding as inconsequential and insignificant while hyperbolizing others who did the same thing as some grave crime against the sport. If MJ would stat pad his scoring numbers and seek out triple doubles in his era, he would also deliberately seek to improve his advanced stats if analytics existed back then.

Most players are deliberately stat padding or playing to whatever the popular narrative is during their era.

Back then the selfish players were the guys that scored a lot. But for whatever reason, thats still the thought today although its clear the selfish players of the last 15 years or so are the players like Lebron/Harden/Westbrook/Luka - the popular thing now is not to just score alot but fill up all the stats, which these guys clearly do so they rack up a bunch of assists at the same, but they dominate the ball so much many times to a team's detriment. These guys are clearly selfish, but cause of the high assist counts, sometimes are not considered that.

[PejaTheSerbSnip]

This post is reflective of why I have referred to MJ stans as a "cult." In this post you're literally making an unnecessary and meaningless distinction between playing for regular "stats" (i.e. scoring) and playing for "advanced stats", just to (maybe unconsciously) protect the image of your basketball hero, MJ, depicting him as some basketball purist who only played to win and not expressly for personal stats also. Just stop it.

No. He didn't play for advanced stats, since they didn't exist, but he did often selfishly play for the stats that did exist and were important in his era. It is documented over and over again that MJ was conscious of his scoring numbers and deliberately, for the majority of his career, played so that he would be the individual leader in that stat. Both Sam Smith in his Jordan Rules book from the early 90's and Phil Jackson recently, clearly stated that MJ wanted to make certain that he continued to lead the league in scoring each season. For his career, his 22.9 fga per game are the second most in NBA history behind Elgin Baylor. The man led the league in field goals taken every full and healthy season of his career other than his rookie season and the '89 season. You don't do that basically every year unless you're aware of your stats and are playing for them.

Then in the '89 season, it was again documented and verified by his on admission that he was playing for stats as he was routinely checking the scorers' table to see how close to a triple double he was.

Finally, during his last season with the Wizards as the season was coming to a close, and he was in danger of losing his all time career scoring lead to Wilt, ESPN was routinely showing how many points he needed to continue to average to maintain his lead. Anybody who was watching then knows this. Somehow, he averaged just the right amount of points to maintain his all time career scoring lead over Wilt by less than .

Stop the blind Jordan hero worship justifying his conscious intentional stat padding as inconsequential and insignificant while hyperbolizing others who did the same thing as some grave crime against the sport. If MJ would stat pad his scoring numbers and seek out triple doubles in his era, he would also deliberately seek to improve his advanced stats if analytics existed back then.

Very well-put.

[90sgoat]

Lebron stans on RealGM are losing their minds over this. Always fun to watch!

Lebron stans on RealGM are the worst.

[3ba11]

Lebron stans on RealGM are losing their minds over this. Always fun to watch!

imagine saying to someone "you're wrong you're wrong you're wrong you're wrong you're wrong you're wrong

and it turns out you're the one that's dead wrong and by a bigger margin than you ever imagined was possible..

Anyone that saw MJ's dominance isn't surprised by any new stats that says he's otherworldly - there was no dominance like Michael's - his massive scoring edge over everyone in history includes incredibly low turnovers and also good efficiency with high jumpshooting volume (which yields ball movement, good fits, and the highest strategic capacity/coaching)

[SouBeachTalents]

imagine saying to someone "you're wrong you're wrong you're wrong you're wrong you're wrong you're wrong

and it turns out you're the one that's dead wrong and by a bigger margin than you ever imagined was possible..

Said without the slightest bit of irony

[3ba11]

Said without the slightest bit of irony

^^^ transparent pretending - longevity crap aside (playing at a lower level for longer), there's no such stats for Lebron that say he's GOAT.. Instead, all the stats say his skillset didn't get the best out of many teammates or have the best brand of ball, while also showing that he underachieves expectation by falling to underdog with favored on-paper talent (preseason favorite)

[3ba11]

his total career ON-OFF is probably like +14 or +15.

Career Playoff ON-OFF 1997-present:
Stephen Curry +12.0
Shaquille O'Neal +11.7
Lebron James +10.2
Kobe Bryant +7.6
Tim Duncan +7.5

Wow

The more we look into the numbers, the more GOAT mj becomes

(and all my claims about MJ are confirmed)

[sdot_thadon]

Most players are deliberately stat padding or playing to whatever the popular narrative is during their era.

Back then the selfish players were the guys that scored a lot. But for whatever reason, thats still the thought today although its clear the selfish players of the last 15 years or so are the players like Lebron/Harden/Westbrook/Luka - the popular thing now is not to just score alot but fill up all the stats, which these guys clearly do so they rack up a bunch of assists at the same, but they dominate the ball so much many times to a team's detriment. These guys are clearly selfish, but cause of the high assist counts, sometimes are not considered that.

Another era switcheroo. Back then high assist was just called point guard/forward lol. No lies in jlip's post at all.

[sdot_thadon]

It's funny how every time a new stat comes out, it shows MJ is #1

Imagine when they first calculated PER - everyone probably gathered in a room when they were going to reveal the numbers - many people probably thought Lebron would be #1 and they surely groaned loudly when MJ was #1

Ditto, BPM, WS, VORP, plus/minus, or things like RAPTOR or adjusted rings

umm, yeah didn't happen that way at all. To the contrary these things were formed around Mjs game being a standard, meaning if they created one that didn't have him at or near the top, it wasn't worth using. Soooo.....

[3ba11]

umm, yeah didn't happen that way at all. To the contrary these things were formed around Mjs game being a standard, meaning if they created one that didn't have him at or near the top, it wasn't worth using. Soooo.....

^^^ see lebron fans will say anything to put him #1

This particular excuse is a new one though.. So apparently there are secret stats that show Lebron is #1 but the statisticians are hiding them.. they only revealed the stats that MJ is leading

that's what you just said...

so apparently when Lebron fans are confronted with the truth of his vast inferiority, they literally invent a conspiracy that indicates they're having psychosis about this issue (delusions)