So turns out MJ also has the GOAT plus-minus?

[dankok8]

Do we these numbers for Guys like magic, bird, Wilt, Russell etc? If not he's just the goat of an incomplete data set lol.

Agree 100%. Unfortunately we don't have data for those guys.

[3ba11]

Yea, unless we can get an official stat on this, alot of this stuff is "He said, she said".

Boom

And the Thinking Basketball video wasn't about plus/minus - it was on a version of net rating.

But I don't trust "Thinking Basketball" because they did an analysis where they claimed to know the percentage of times that Jordan missed the open man - this is ridiculous on so many levels from subjectivity to x's and o's (like they know the plays or something)

Then they made a video about how Jordan's 1st three-peat cast was actually pretty good, yet they were still inferior to 25% of NBA casts (75th percentile) - that's complete trash for the greatest winning team of the modern era - there aren't supposed to by ANY casts that are better, let alone 25% of casts.. Then he says the 2nd three-peat casts were much worse than the 1st three-peat but still maintains all along that these are GOOD numbers that make Jordan's cast look good.. So they're misinterpreting their own numbers - a 3-peat cast should not still be worse than 25% of casts.. Peja must have made the video - a massive nothingburger

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

Long after retirement and Mike is still catching dubs

Pretty cool someone went back to track the 80s. About 20 years ago, 1985: Game 3 vs Milwaukee was considered 'rare' among collectors. It was MJ's first playoff win.

[Full Court]

How convenient. two years when he got swept and another year where he lost.

^Advanced stats tend to confuse this poster.

[dankok8]

^Advanced stats tend to confuse this poster.

Nah he's right. MJ's total career ON-OFF is probably less like +15 maybe +14. Problem is that's still insanely good.

[ShawkFactory]

Do we these numbers for Guys like magic, bird, Wilt, Russell etc? If not he's just the goat of an incomplete data set lol.

I would imagine that Russell's are crazy. Particularly in the early to mid 60s.

[Full Court]

Nah he's right. MJ's total career ON-OFF is probably less like +15 maybe +14. Problem is that's still insanely good.

Be that as it may, advanced stats really do confuse the crap out of him.

[3ba11]

It's funny how every time a new stat comes out, it shows MJ is #1

Imagine when they first calculated PER - everyone probably gathered in a room when they were going to reveal the numbers - many people probably thought Lebron would be #1 and they surely groaned loudly when MJ was #1

Ditto, BPM, WS, VORP, plus/minus, or things like RAPTOR or adjusted rings

[SouBeachTalents]

It's funny how every time a new stat comes out, it shows MJ is #1

Imagine when they first calculated PER - everyone probably gathered in a room when they were going to reveal the numbers - many people probably thought Lebron would be #1 and they surely groaned loudly when MJ was #1

Ditto, BPM, WS, VORP, plus/minus, or things like RAPTOR or adjusted rings

It's funny how most of them have LeBron top 2 also.

[ShawkFactory]

It's funny how most of them have LeBron top 2 also.

And that everyone he argues with agrees that MJ is #1

Context must be applied after that though. Can't have Lebron that high.

[3ba11]

It's funny how most of them have LeBron top 2 also.

Yes the stats are only part of the story

The other parts are winning (championships and championship record, aka team ceiling) and actual basketball ability (aka skillset and weaknesses, brand of ball, #1 offenses, chemistry, and a strong record of elevating and growing teammates)

So Lebron's stats are #2 but his winning, brand of ball and other factors rank low.. along with his skillset (he has actual weaknesses to his game, aka exploitable)

Based on winning and these other factors, tons of guys can overcome the stat deficit like Duncan, Kobe, Bird, Curry and others

[90sgoat]

MJ played in a time when stats were not considered that important, scoring yes and All Star Games and First Team, but no one gave a crap about advanced stats which didn't even exist.

Lebron has played in an era where he, at least after Miami, was very much aware of his stats and advanced stats and began playing to them.

Lebron went from taking and missing a lot of midrange shots to barely taking any and that was because of analydids.

Lebron has played deliberately to increase his advanced stats.

[Full Court]

And that everyone he argues with agrees that MJ is #1

Context must be applied after that though. Can't have Lebron that high.

After he retires he'll drop in consensus rankings to a more reasonable rank. Maybe not right away, but once the recency bias wears off and the media gets a new hype job, it'll happen.

[Soundwave]

After he retires he'll drop in consensus rankings to a more reasonable rank. Maybe not right away, but once the recency bias wears off and the media gets a new hype job, it'll happen.

Yup, you're 100% right about that.

The recency bias will wear off and then you'll have younger kids who didn't even see LeBron in his prime ranking him like 4 or 5 overall.

[jlip]

MJ played in a time when stats were not considered that important, scoring yes and All Star Games and First Team, but no one gave a crap about advanced stats which didn't even exist.

Lebron has played in an era where he, at least after Miami, was very much aware of his stats and advanced stats and began playing to them.

Lebron went from taking and missing a lot of midrange shots to barely taking any and that was because of analydids.

Lebron has played deliberately to increase his advanced stats.

This post is reflective of why I have referred to MJ stans as a "cult." In this post you're literally making an unnecessary and meaningless distinction between playing for regular "stats" (i.e. scoring) and playing for "advanced stats", just to (maybe unconsciously) protect the image of your basketball hero, MJ, depicting him as some basketball purist who only played to win and not expressly for personal stats also. Just stop it.

No. He didn't play for advanced stats, since they didn't exist, but he did often selfishly play for the stats that did exist and were important in his era. It is documented over and over again that MJ was conscious of his scoring numbers and deliberately, for the majority of his career, played so that he would be the individual leader in that stat. Both Sam Smith in his Jordan Rules book from the early 90's and Phil Jackson recently, clearly stated that MJ wanted to make certain that he continued to lead the league in scoring each season. For his career, his 22.9 fga per game are the second most in NBA history behind Elgin Baylor. The man led the league in field goals taken every full and healthy season of his career other than his rookie season and the '89 season. You don't do that basically every year unless you're aware of your stats and are playing for them.

Then in the '89 season, it was again documented and verified by his on admission that he was playing for stats as he was routinely checking the scorers' table to see how close to a triple double he was.

Finally, during his last season with the Wizards as the season was coming to a close, and he was in danger of losing his all time career scoring lead to Wilt, ESPN was routinely showing how many points he needed to continue to average to maintain his lead. Anybody who was watching then knows this. Somehow, he averaged just the right amount of points to maintain his all time career scoring lead over Wilt by less than .

Stop the blind Jordan hero worship justifying his conscious intentional stat padding as inconsequential and insignificant while hyperbolizing others who did the same thing as some grave crime against the sport. If MJ would stat pad his scoring numbers and seek out triple doubles in his era, he would also deliberately seek to improve his advanced stats if analytics existed back then.