Theres actually no argument against Jokic being as good as any player ever

[Xiao Yao You]

Yeah but in the playoffs Mitchell gets his, but he doesnt elevate the team.

It’s not that the team losing is in itself a knock on him. But every year I watch him, even before the outcome is I decided I notice a guy who doesnt seem to have great feel for how to USE his scoring to control the game and get his team better chances. Thats why he loses to guys like Brunson and Luka. He’s not great at reading what the team actually needs him to do, he’s just in “look to make a difficult shot” mode. I dont think hes being selfish or lazy etc I think he just doesnt have great instincts for what to do in a given situation besides look to make a tough shot. It’s nice he can do that but it’s not enough and just looking at a statline wont tell you who he is.

Thats really my point about this “GOAT” stuff. Looking at a resumé doesnt tell you who a guy is. I see what Joker is doing and it’s easy enough for me to tell who he is. Same with anyone else in history that Ive watched. So the resumé is immaterial. Im comparing who each guy really is while the game is happening, not what lines on a piece of paper say about him.

I dont get why other people dont do it that way.

pretty much. He doesn't make the right play. He could have been Gobert's Stockton but him and The Bum were too busy getting theirs instead of what was the right play. Cavs even have more talent around him. If he was as great as the hype people would be talking about the Cavs. They aren't

[Wally450]

Subtle trolling within the post. Love it.

[warriorfan]

Yeah but in the playoffs Mitchell gets his, but he doesnt elevate the team.

It’s not that the team losing is in itself a knock on him. But every year I watch him, even before the outcome is I decided I notice a guy who doesnt seem to have great feel for how to USE his scoring to control the game and get his team better chances. He’s never really reads what the team needs him to do, he’s just always in “look to make a difficult shot” mode. It’s nice he can do that but just looking st a statline wont tell you who he is.

Thats really my point about this “GOAT” stuff. Looking at a resumé doesnt tell you who a guy is. I see what Joker is doing and it’s easy enough for me to tell who he is. Same with anyone else in history that Ive watched. So the resumé is immaterial. Im comparing who each guy really is while the game is happening, not what lines on a piece of paper say about him.

I dont get why other people dont do it that way.

You have to use both stats and eye test and have them both guide each other in a way.

Stats can lie, eye test can lie. You need to use them both to double check each other.

When we look at stats without watching and don’t fully account for the context behind those stats… Like we can take Jayson Tatum’s statline and compare it to Larry Bird and make the conclusion they were similar levels of players. Stats say it’s true but it obviously isn’t. We know the context behind rule and style changes that have lead to an inflation of stats, if we watch them both we can see that the stats are lying and they aren’t similar in level.

Eye test can also be deceiving as well. We can’t realistically watch every play of every game in the season. Even if you catch every play for half the games and are paying full attention, you are only seeing half of the sample size. There could be things going on in games you miss and you aren’t “recording it” with your eye test.

Then with the eye test we have to address our biases, not only our obvious ones but our unconscious biases. We may like someone more based on a connection with them somehow, or even if we don’t know the exact reason, everyone has their players they like more then others on the team. It can be for subtle subconscious reasons or it can be purely random.

What i’m getting at is it’s more difficult than we think to set aside certain biases with the eye test, even if you are being aware of them and trying to not be biased.


So there’s obviously issues with both using statistics and using the eye test. That’s why I believe using them in concert while making sure to take into account the context of the numbers is the best way to evaluate a player.

[FultzNationRISE]

pretty much. He doesn't make the right play. He could have been Gobert's Stockton but him and The Bum were too busy getting theirs instead of what was the right play. Cavs even have more talent around him. If he was as great as the hype people would be talking about the Cavs. They aren't

Exactly. Gobert was as good as Malone.

Better, even.

[tpols]

Yeah but in the playoffs Mitchell gets his, but he doesnt elevate the team.

It’s not that the team losing is in itself a knock on him. But every year I watch him, even before the outcome is I decided I notice a guy who doesnt seem to have great feel for how to USE his scoring to control the game and get his team better chances. Thats why he loses to guys like Brunson and Luka. He’s not great at reading what the team actually needs him to do, he’s just in “look to make a difficult shot” mode. I dont think hes being selfish or lazy etc I think he just doesnt have great instincts for what to do in a given situation besides look to make a tough shot. It’s nice he can do that but it’s not enough and just looking at a statline wont tell you who he is.

Thats really my point about this “GOAT” stuff. Looking at a resumé doesnt tell you who a guy is. I see what Joker is doing and it’s easy enough for me to tell who he is. Same with anyone else in history that Ive watched. So the resumé is immaterial. Im comparing who each guy really is while the game is happening, not what lines on a piece of paper say about him.

I dont get why other people dont do it that way.

I agree with this but Murray isn't really a big teammate elevator either. And let's be real playing with jokic is a huge boon to your numbers and performance compared to playing with Rudy gobert and a bunch of nobodies. Murray wouldn't even make the playoffs with Cleveland.

[Xiao Yao You]

Exactly. Gobert was as good as Malone.

Better, even.

didn't say that. Great pick and roll player. Ideally your best players are the heart of everything. Conley, Hill, Hayward, Ingles with Gobert were great but for them to exceed expectations Mitchell needed to be that guy and he wasn't

[Xiao Yao You]

I agree with this but Murray isn't really a big teammate elevator either. And let's be real playing with jokic is a huge boon to your numbers and performance compared to playing with Rudy gobert and a bunch of nobodies. Murray wouldn't even make the playoffs with Cleveland.

Murray and Jokic play great off of each other. Mitchell plays great off one person himself. The Cavs with Garland. Murray, Mobley and Allen wouldn't make the playoffs?

[tpols]

pretty much. He doesn't make the right play. He could have been Gobert's Stockton but him and The Bum were too busy getting theirs instead of what was the right play. Cavs even have more talent around him. If he was as great as the hype people would be talking about the Cavs. They aren't

Goberts offense is trash bro. Stockton got to play with a top 5 all time scoring champion for his as entire career. Night and day difference offensively and overall between Karl Malone and Rudy gobert. A Galactical margin.

[Xiao Yao You]

Goberts offense is trash bro. Stockton got to play with a top 5 all time scoring champion for his as entire career. Night and day difference offensively and overall between Karl Malone and Rudy gobert. A Galactical margin.

and yet he's been one of the most impactful offensive players in the league. Stockton would have made him look even better as he did with Malone

[tpols]

Murray and Jokic play great off of each other. Mitchell plays great off one person himself. The Cavs with Garland. Murray, Mobley and Allen wouldn't make the playoffs?

Murray doesn't have the stamina to carry a team for 82 games. He's good in spurts which is why he is a valuable playoff asset... btw none of those guys you name dropped are particularly impressive. Especially compared to jokic, thats super weak by comparison.

[warriorfan]

Murray and Jokic play great off of each other. Mitchell plays great off one person himself. The Cavs with Garland. Murray, Mobley and Allen wouldn't make the playoffs?

that’s like saying a player had great chemistry with chris paul and bashing another player because he didn’t have the same chemistry with patrick beverly

lmaoooo

[tpols]

and yet he's been one of the most impactful offensive players in the league. Stockton would have made him look even better as he did with Malone

You're out of your damn mind calling Rudy g0bert one of the best offensive players in the league.

[FultzNationRISE]

I agree with this but Murray isn't really a big teammate elevator either. And let's be real playing with jokic is a huge boon to your numbers and performance compared to playing with Rudy gobert and a bunch of nobodies. Murray wouldn't even make the playoffs with Cleveland.

Murray’s first instinct is definitely to look for a shot, but actually Joker’s influence has rubbed off on him a lot and when he focuses on making the right play he’s pretty good at it.

Theres def pressure on him not to chuck too much when hes playing next to the BITW, and maybe on a team like the Cavs he wouldnt have the discipline to avoid it. But I do think he’s capable of being a better playmaker when he wants to be than Mitchell is. With Murray Ive at least seen flashes of it. Mitchell I dont really recall any. (Not saying Mitchell’s never made a good pass, just in terms of looking in control for an extended period).

[Xiao Yao You]

Murray doesn't have the stamina to carry a team for 82 games. He's good in spurts which is why he is a valuable playoff asset... btw none of those guys you name dropped are particularly impressive. Especially compared to jokic, thats super weak by comparison.

2 all stars and a future all star/DPOTY with Murray

[Xiao Yao You]

You're out of your damn mind calling Rudy g0bert one of the best offensive players in the league.

I said impactful. Elite finisher/elite rim runner/elite screener/elite pick and roller/ elite offensive rebounder. If the great Mitchell could run the pick and roll they would have been unstoppabble. He only knows iso. That doesn't work with Jokic