Where do you rank Donovan Mitchell?

[RRR3]

Dame has been disappointing but he is getting old.

[Kblaze8855]

I remember hearing people directly involved in the Bulls saying "They got over the hump once Michael learned x" or "started trusting y" etc.

Nobody wins or loses on their own, but when you observe a guy's flaws and you see them specifically born out in a series and they lose in an upset as the home courted seed (in Mitchell's case)... I think it's fair to call that player a factor in the loss.

I'm not just saying I'm right 'because they lost.' I'm saying that what I said about his playoff effectiveness at the time of the trade, is exactly what happened again on the court in his first Cleveland playoff, and I saw it with my own eyes. And those shortcomings in his game were clearly a factor in their upset loss.

Of course, people say it that way because it’s the simplest way to describe it. I find what Barkley said about it a lot more true.

“That’s bulls**t. I and Michael Jordan always get a bad reputation. All you ever hear is that Magic and Bird are the only ones who make their teammates better. My thing is, who is it easier to make better—James Worthy, Kevin McHale, or Jayson Williams.”

And every perceptible flaw is a factor in every loss. Anytime the other team scores more than yours you could’ve done something better to make that less likely. And that something you could’ve done better is generally something that could be considered a flaw. That doesn’t mean the thing a person haters harp on is the individual reason the team lost.

At its simplest you could just say every great players losses could be avoided by being greater. Either have smaller flaws or bigger positives. Be better.

But the problem is…if everyone were perfect?

Youd have precisely as many losers. The games won’t end up tied. Even if you had to play till exhaustion forced enough people out of the game for a forfeit. Someone is gonna lose.

So is it the flaws causing it? Or is it the inevitable result of competition?

we all want to be right, so we tend to tie failure to the specific things we predicted would cause it, but it’s rarely true. Especially these days. It takes so much to win and so much to lose….the individual traits one person has are tough to exploit to the extent it’s the whole reason anything happened.

Id say certain defensive issues can make one player a huge problem if they can’t offset it on the other end. People who can’t shoot make it easier to double their teammates. A lot of things like that are a factor…but the problem is we watch teams go through those problems and lose….blame the problem player….

And ignore that they weren’t gonna win anyway.

And that teams that don’t have that problem are also going to lose. The simple truth is you’re just going to lose. You’re going to lose almost all the time no matter what. Build a super team and keep them together for 15 years. They’re still gonna lose 70% of the time.

Won’t make the detractors right when they say the things they pointed out previously are the reason they lost. But they’re going to say it. They’re going to say it does every single time. Take out a magic wand and fix whatever the greatest flaw in anybody is they’re still gonna lose 12-15 times.

Doesn’t mean every detractor is right. It means pointing out that somebody isn’t perfect and waiting for the results to suggest they aren’t is the easiest thing to do in the world.

[NBAGOAT]

he's obviously got the physical tools to play D. Actually trying helps though. Got a lot more talent around him in Cleveland and i assume better coaching

But he doesn’t have a lot more talent. Utah was very talented his last few years

[Xiao Yao You]

But he doesn’t have a lot more talent. Utah was very talented his last few years

Closest Gobert ever had to Mobley was the last legs of Joe Johnson and the corpse of Boris Diaw so no. Could argue Conley over Garland for intangibles. Cavs had a great D last year even without the generations best defender while the Jazz had Gobert trying to stop teams mostly by himself

[Kblaze8855]

The Cavs are absolutely not more talented than the jazz were.

[Xiao Yao You]

The Cavs are absolutely not more talented than the jazz were.

Guess it depends on how much better you think Gobert is than Allen and since we know you think Gobert is basically the same player as him, Capela, Jordan etc. than no it's not really close. Cavs offense and defense is even better this year relative to the league than last year and they had a lot better D than the Jazz had the last couple years when COTM put it all on Gobert. 5th in point difference. I'd venture to say better coaching since COTM has never won without Gobert. Guessing Bickerstaff makes adjustments in game? Got to wonder where his next stop will be after the awful job in Atlanta. Gobert never had a Mobley unless you think Favors from the corner compares. No Bum gumming up the works. No backup in The Matador playing a big role.

[Kblaze8855]

Regardless of what anyone else thinks of him you think Gobert is an elite player. You think he’s better than Mitchell. Mitchell is the best player on the Cavs. So you’re starting with a player supposedly better than him. Adding the other teams best player. And going from there. That’s quite a bit to catch up on with Conley probably the next best player on either team.

having Mitchell on both teams while you think the Jazz also had a better player, makes it a very tough hill to climb.

[tpols]

My opinion of him is the same as others that don't compete defensively or involve their teammates

You literally hate on Jason Kidd when he's the best defensive point guard of all time and was a great passer and floor general. So if a guys strength is scoring but he sucks at defense and passing like mitchell you hate. If a guys strength is defense and passing but sucks at scoring like Kidd you hate. You just aren't consistent with what you like at all.

[tpols]

Closest Gobert ever had to Mobley was the last legs of Joe Johnson and the corpse of Boris Diaw so no. Could argue Conley over Garland for intangibles. Cavs had a great D last year even without the generations best defender while the Jazz had Gobert trying to stop teams mostly by himself

What? Prime Gordon Hayward was a beast and way better than Mobley.

[Xiao Yao You]

Regardless of what anyone else thinks of him you think Gobert is an elite player. You think he’s better than Mitchell. Mitchell is the best player on the Cavs. So you’re starting with a player supposedly better than him. Adding the other teams best player. And going from there. That’s quite a bit to catch up on with Conley probably the next best player on either team.

having Mitchell on both teams while you think the Jazz also had a better player, makes it a very tough hill to climb.

Have no opinion of Mitchell currently. Haven't watched him. On the Jazz Gobert was certainly their best player from at least December of 2014 until the time he left and it would be hard to argue otherwise with any facts in hand. Awful team without Gobert on the floor most of that time. A very good team with him on the floor. How many so called elite players carried otherwise bad teams during that time? Without Mitchell on the floor they were actually better for some strange reason? Playing one end of the floor? Ignoring the other 4 guys at the other end? COTM letting him and The Bum do their thing with no regard to their teammates?

I'm starting with Allen because he is a poor man's Gobert or in your case basically the same player. Mitchell and Niang remain. Garland and Conley you can argue not statistically though. Mobley is certainly unlike anyone Gobert ever got to play with. Than it's the role players. I can't imagine the Cavs have anyone as bad as The Bum do they? If they do the coach certainly isn't letting them play a major role. Obviously Ingles was special until his last year

[Xiao Yao You]

You literally hate on Jason Kidd when he's the best defensive point guard of all time and was a great passer and floor general. So if a guys strength is scoring but he sucks at defense and passing like mitchell you hate. If a guys strength is defense and passing but sucks at scoring like Kidd you hate. You just aren't consistent with what you like at all.

not a fan of guys that can't shoot thinking they should be shooting. I'm very consistent in that

[Xiao Yao You]

What? Prime Gordon Hayward was a beast and way better than Mobley.

Hayward wasn't playing the 4 unfortunately so hard to compare him with a 4. We're comparing Mobley with 6'4" O'Neale, Favors spotting up in the corner, the brief promise that was Trey Lyles, the last legs of Joe Johnson, the corpse of Boris Diaw and the inefficient 8 3's a game from Crowder. Hayward was certainly better than Mitchell ever was in Utah. And that was as close as the Jazz ever got to building a team around their best player and that only happened because Favors was hurt and COTM was forced to play the last legs of Joe Jonson and the corpse of Boris Diaw

[Xiao Yao You]

Now if he'd been able to play with Millsap or Lauri we'd be having a different conversation all together

[NBAGOAT]

prime gobert is better than allen but allen is really damn good. Shouldve gotten some consideration for all star this year. Conley was an all star his best year too even now a big reason minnesota is so good. Bojan was a really good starter 20ppg guy you're just forgetting and he was their 4th guy, ingles and "the bum" off the bench was loaded.

whoever the cavs played at the 3 was worse than "the bum" last year. Strus is pretty good especially compared to what the cavs had last year but just a role player. Not that much better than someone like o'neale.

[FKAri]

Who is "the bum" ?