From 89' to 91, BJ and Pippen improved 4 ppg and Grant none.. Trash team to goat team

[3ba11]

If anyone else won a title while getting 35-41 ppg and 15-20 more than all teammates, everyone would say their cast was complete garbage.. And when we look at the data, we see that the Bulls' cast had barely improved from their 89' production levels and were infact this type of trash that needed 35-41 and complete carrying of scoring load.

The winning spotlight simply inflates the cast beyond what they really were (barely better than their trash 89' version)

btw, the only way this kind of marginal improvement by a few role players can take a trash team to goat team is with great development of chemistry and strategy (brand of ball).. And it would be impossible for the league scoring and usage leader to fit into this kind of championship development and brand, unless they were the GOAT - no one else in history was good enough to carry the league's biggest burden (usage or scoring leader) and still play a championship brand of ball (win title), except the GOAT did it 5 times.. Only the goat combined goat individual stats/achievement with goat team success

[AussieSteve]

As a thought experiment, ask yourself how many points the other four players on the court would score if one player took every single shot.

Now use the same logic to think about why a player who takes 25+ shots a game might have lower scoring team mates than a player who takes 20 shots a game and is a better passer.

Let me know who you go

[3ba11]

.
1992 Pippen..... 21.0 and 7.0 apg
1994 Pippen..... 22.0 and 5.6 APG

1992 Horace..... 14/10
1994 Horace..... 15/11

As a thought experiment, ask yourself how many points the other four players on the court would score if one player took every single shot.

Now use the same logic to think about why a player who takes 25+ shots a game might have lower scoring team mates than a player who takes 20 shots a game and is a better passer.

Let me know who you go

The 94' season where everyone's averages stayed similar to their highs alongside Mike confirmed that Pippen and others were playing near capacity alongside Mike (near career highs), while worst-ever efficiency by Pippen further confirmed that he couldn't handle additional load or even the one he had.

In contrast to Jordan's teammates playing to capacity, we see Lebron's teammates often crater below their career highs and play far below capacity in the spot-up roles that Lebron's game imposes.. They also don't grow alongside Lebron in these spot-up roles, while Jordan's teammates saw massive statistical growth alongside him.

In the 93' Finals, the Bulls/Suns both averaged 106.7 ppg and 113.0 ortg, while Pippen had worst-ever efficiency with 46% true shooting (couldn't handle additional load).. So every ounce of Jordan's 41 was needed) and if he was "carrying" in 87' with 37 ppg and 20 more than all teammates, then why isn't he carrying in 92' or 93' with 35-41 and 20 more than all teammates?.. Again, the title teams were actually the same trash roster that he had in 89' except Pippen/BJ improved 4 ppg and Grant none

[Hey Yo]

The above shows that Pippen put up practically the same numbers in 92 as he did in 94. Which means Pip could be seen as a top 3 MVP vote getter just as he was in 94. Grant had very little change in the years above, except the difference is he was voted to the all-star team in 94 but not 92.

Conclusion is that MJ played with a near MVP (and All-NBA on both sides) plus another All-star in Grant. That's what you call stacked!!

[AussieSteve]

The 94' season where everyone's averages stayed similar to their highs alongside Mike confirmed that Pippen and others were playing near capacity alongside Mike (near career highs), while worst-ever efficiency by Pippen further confirmed that he couldn't handle additional load or even the one he had.

In contrast to Jordan's teammates playing to capacity, we see Lebron's teammates often crater below their career highs and play far below capacity in the spot-up roles that Lebron's game imposes.. They also don't grow alongside Lebron in these spot-up roles, while Jordan's teammates saw massive statistical growth alongside him.

In the 93' Finals, the Bulls/Suns both averaged 106.7 ppg and 113.0 ortg, while Pippen had worst-ever efficiency with 46% true shooting (couldn't handle additional load).. So every ounce of Jordan's 41 was needed) and if he was "carrying" in 87' with 37 ppg and 20 more than all teammates, then why isn't he carrying in 92' or 93' with 35-41 and 20 more than all teammates?.. Again, the title teams were actually the same trash roster that he had in 89' except Pippen/BJ improved 4 ppg and Grant none

In 94 Pippen achieved a career high in scoring
In 94 Grant achieved a career high in scoring
In 94 BJ achieved a career high in scoring
In 94 Meyers achieved a career high in scoring
In 94 Kerr achieved a career high in scoring

That's 4 out of 5 starters and their 6th man, all getting career high scoring.

Also, in 94, Pippen was 8th in the league in scoring.

Over the last 4 seasons, the 8th leading acorers have been Kyrie, Booker, Zion and Kawhi. So that's where Pippen was relative to the league... a top tier scorer.

[3ba11]

In 94 Pippen achieved a career high in scoring
In 94 Grant achieved a career high in scoring
In 94 BJ achieved a career high in scoring
In 94 Meyers achieved a career high in scoring
In 94 Kerr achieved a career high in scoring

That's 4 out of 5 starters and their 6th man, all getting career high scoring.

^^^ They lost the goat scorer and only increased 1 ppg each... That means they played to capacity next to MJ and over-capacity in Pippen's case when we include assists.. They're also mostly system players and nothing outside a coddling system (pippen, bj, kerr).

Teammates playing to capacity is one of Jordan's strengths, along with his teammate development (he doesn't impose spot-up roles, so there are many examples of teammates growing by leaps and bounds alongside him).

Otoh, the guy that should legitimately shoot less so his teammates can score more is Lebron, since many teammates play far below capacity alongside him and would increase their scoring significantly if he scored less.. Otoh, Jordan's teammates are only playing 1 ppg below capacity, so all of Jordan's scoring is needed.

That's 4 out of 5 starters and their 6th man, all getting career high scoring.

Again, the goat scorer leaves and everyone basically stays the same (1 ppg increase)?.. you're making my point that teammates amazingly played to capacity alongside the goat scorer.

We saw the 93' Finals where the Bulls and Suns both averaged 106.7 ppg and 113.0 ortg, while Pippen had 46% true shooting (couldn't handle additional load).. So every ounce of Jordan's 41 was needed..

And if Jordan was "carrying" in 1987 with 37 ppg, then why isn't he "carrying" in 92' or 93' with 35 and 41 ppg while completely carrying the scoring load?.

Again, the title teams were actually the same trash roster that he had in 89' except Pippen/BJ improved 4 ppg and Grant none (see thread title).. People are just results-oriented so they look at 6 chips and assume a stacked cast instead of a barely-improved 89' roster plus brand of ball development.

Over the last 4 seasons, the 8th leading acorers have been Kyrie, Booker, Zion and Kawhi. So that's where Pippen was relative to the league... a top tier scorer.

So Pippen's absolute best-scoring season barely scrapes the bottom of Kyrie, Booker or Zion's?

lol

You keep making my point.. Now you're saying that MJ won 2 three-peats with a sidekick whose best scoring ability was comparable to the weaker versions of Zion, Booker or Kyrie... And you're even wrong here too - Pippen's peak was only 22 ppg and it was mostly transition, aka nothing like the scoring that Kyrie or Booker do that requires defensive adjustments in the half court like closeouts or doubles.. Pippen allows defenses the rare luxury of sagging off and packing the paint, while never commanding a double-team in his life.

[RachlNicholsazz]

[3ba11]

In 94 Pippen achieved a career high in scoring
In 94 Grant achieved a career high in scoring
In 94 BJ achieved a career high in scoring
In 94 Meyers achieved a career high in scoring
In 94 Kerr achieved a career high in scoring

That's 4 out of 5 starters and their 6th man, all getting career high scoring.

Also, in 94, Pippen was 8th in the league in scoring.

Over the last 4 seasons, the 8th leading acorers have been Kyrie, Booker, Zion and Kawhi. So that's where Pippen was relative to the league... a top tier scorer.

In 1994, Kerr increased by 0.2 ppg compared to 96' alongside Mike, while Grant and Pippen went up by 1 ppg compared to their highs alongside Mike, so they also played to capacity.. Meanwhile, BJ had 3 consecutive increases leading up to 94', so a 4th increase in 94' that matched the previous 3 is normal and expected.

So you're wrong - Jordan's teammates played to capacity alongside him.

Otoh, many teammates play far below capacity alongside Lebron and therefore would increase their scoring significantly if he scored less.

And there's no comparing a transition scorer/dunker and system player like Pippen to all-time scorers like Kyrie or Booker or Kawhi.. It's absurd.. System players can get 22 ppg in transition and flow points but this doesn't compare to the go-to "takeover" style of the top scorers like Kyrie or Booker that require closing out on the perimeter and double teams... These guys have scoring champion caliber and it's naive to compare Pippen's transition play to them just because his peak year of 22 ppg compares to their low years..

Compare peak vs peak but in this case it isn't worth it because we're talking about a transition player and bricklayer in Pippen vs all-time scorers and sweet-shooters (Booker, Kyrie) or clutch champion assassins (kawhi).

[AussieSteve]

Everyone of MJs key team mates had career high scoring years while he was gone.

Pippen. Was #8 in the league in scoring, while also being the #1 perimeter defender.

Not throwing shade at MJ. Just your argument comparing MJs team mates' scoring with the team mates of other players who have a lower usage %.

If player A shoots less and passes better than player B, it makes sense that player A would have higher scoring team mates.

This is consistent with MJs team mates ALL scoring a little more with MJ gone. And ALL scoring a little less again when he came back.

[StrongLurk]

You need to compare MJ/Bulls to the other teams he faced. Plenty of teams back then only had one elite scorer. Plenty of stars never played with anyone on Pippen's level.

We all know these Bulls teams would get smacked in eras that came after them, because as you have said, MJ's cast sucked and that era had teams with one star, crap depth, and no long distance shooting.

[StrongLurk]

You need to compare MJ/Bulls to the other teams he faced. Plenty of teams back then only had one elite scorer. Plenty of stars never played with anyone on Pippen's level.

We all know these Bulls teams would get smacked in eras that came after them, because as you have said, MJ's cast sucked and that era had teams with one star, crap depth, and no long distance shooting.

Thread ender.

[3ba11]

You need to compare MJ/Bulls to the other teams he faced. Plenty of teams back then only had one elite scorer. Plenty of stars never played with anyone on Pippen's level.

We all know these Bulls teams would get smacked in eras that came after them, because as you have said, MJ's cast sucked and that era had teams with one star, crap depth, and no long distance shooting.

Portland had Terry Porter, who was a better scorer and passer than Pippen, while also being a historic clutch player (think Chauncey Billups) - see the 92' WCF where he carried Blazers to Finals with 26/4/8 on 53% three-point shooting (6 attempts) - when did Pippen carry the Bulls to the Finals by being 1st option and completely dominating with elite stats and clutch go-to domination?... Giannis wishes that he had the better Blazer (Terry Porter) instead of Dame.

Now keep in mind that Porter was the WORST sidekick that Jordan faced in the Finals.

Every other sidekick also carried their team to the Finals, such as Stockton in the 97' WCF, or Worthy in the 87' WCF (31 on 62%), or KJ dominated and upset Magic's 1-seeded Lakers to make the 90' WCF.. He also dominating Hakeem in 2 seven-game series in 94' and 95' Playoffs (27/5/9 in each series while Barkley wet bed and cost series).. Kj had numerous 40-point games and legendary dunk over Hakeem).. Meanwhile, Kemp, Payton and Schrempf alternated being the 1st option and Payton/Kemp achieved elite stats as 1st option while Pippen never did - Pippen was never 20/10 like Payton/Kemp and was never a go-to player in the halfcourt like they were.

You need to compare MJ/Bulls to the other teams he faced. Plenty of teams back then only had one elite scorer. Plenty of stars never played with anyone on Pippen's level.

We all know these Bulls teams would get smacked in eras that came after them, because as you have said, MJ's cast sucked and that era had teams with one star, crap depth, and no long distance shooting.

Pippen was the only notable 90's sidekick that was more of a transition player/dunker instead of the go-to player and "1b" that every other sidekick was (described above).. They had elite peak ability that could carry teams to Finals, while Pippen had the lowest peak ability (not on scouting report according to Shaq), while also having the worst passing and spacing/efficiency or clutch.. He was just a transition dunker and system player - literally NOTHING outside the system that he grew up in - that's the historical record.. It's like being nothing unless you went to expensive private school and even having pedestrian stats or income in the end.

You need to compare MJ/Bulls to the other teams he faced. Plenty of teams back then only had one elite scorer. Plenty of stars never played with anyone on Pippen's level.

We all know these Bulls teams would get smacked in eras that came after them, because as you have said, MJ's cast sucked and that era had teams with one star, crap depth, and no long distance shooting.

Aside from a go-to player at sidekick, the biggest deficit that the Bulls had to other teams was the fact that they had no 3rd scorer, while literally every other contender had 3rd and even 4th or 5th scorers - we're talking guys that routinely averaged around 20 points but playing 3rd, 4th or 5th option.. For example, the Blazers had all-star scorer Ducksworth at 3rd option, while their 5th option Jerome Kersey routinely averaged 20 ppg - Kersey actually led the Blazers in scoring for the Western Playoffs of their 90' Finals run.. All-stars like Ainge, Petrovic or all-defender Cliff Robinson were coming off the Blazers' bench to back up all-stars Drexler, Porter, Duckworth, Buck Williams and the aforementioned 5th option Kersey.

The Knicks had 5 players after Ewing/Starks that were equal or better than Horace Grant such as Mark Jackson, Anthony Mason, X-Man, and Oakley - a far superior roster to the Bulls.. The 93' Suns were far more loaded or the 91' Lakers were stacked compared to the Bulls, aka Byron Scott destroys Paxson, while Vlade/Perkins destroyed Grant... Even the Jazz had Hornacek at 3rd option, who was a reputed scorer, playmaker and shooter... Only the Bulls lacked a 3rd scorer or really good players at the 3-12 spots during the 1st three-peat years.. During the 2nd threepeat, guys like Kukoc, Harper and Rodman were "real players" that provided some legitimate depth, but they were still bit players and low producers.

[Hey Yo]

Nothing to see here. Everything above has already been debunked by Peja

[3ba11]

Nothing to see here. Everything above has already been debunked by Peja

Peja talked in circles so much that he ended up reiterating all of my points and we agreed on literally everything relating to MJ - the only thing we disagreed on was Lebron's effect on teammates - I kind of had him cornered and it felt weird and embarrassing so we kind of just let it go

And we never talked about how the 91' championship team was the exact same roster as the horrible 89' roster and how this means that they went from trash team to goat team by mostly chemistry development, not a major increase in player stats.. So Jordan was still carrying the same kind of trash roster that required him to average 35-37 in 1987 and 88', since he averaged 35-37 for the 92' and 93' title runs, or 41 in the Finals.