The athleticism of todays athletes really would be too much for my idols to play.

[Kblaze8855]

I’m on my way to get an oil change so I can’t do this whole thing now but….

OK, let's ignore Kyrie's handles. But let's keep it about guards. You mentioned the finishing ability. He might be the best in the league today on layups but he isn't without peer. I'd put Curry and maybe even Murray in his tier. In Stockton's time he would have no peer. His ability to stop on a dime and pull up coupled with the quickness of his release? Elite? Maybe. It's certainly very good. In Stockton's time? Definitely elite.

If you think Curry and Jamal are peers and nobody in Stocktons time were I….really don’t know what to tell you. I know you know who Kyries godfather was. I know you know guys like Kevin Johnson Who not only had layups, but would go over the top of you. I assume you know Sarunas. Gervin had a GOAT tier layup package at the 2(using similar training as Kyrie with his childhood broken backboard) before even that and going into Stocktons time. Jordan goes without saying. And plenty of guards back then were polished post players who could finish inside even guarded by bigs. Payton. Penny. Drexler was ridiculous layup wise. Nick Van Exel wasn’t elite, but he was throwing floaters off Odins beard when he consistently had two big men between him and the basket. And Stocktons time lasted till Baron Davis, Steve Francis and so on. He played 7 years against Iverson. Quite a bit with Tony Parker.

this is more an issue of people only crediting the biggest names and forgetting other people existed. And that isn’t even considering what any of those players would look like as finishers with the lanes as consistently empty behind their men as they are now.

Harold Minor wasn’t even good. But if you remember more about him than dunk contest highlights, you know, he was an absolute menace to keep from the basket one on one. Isaiah Rider would do some wild shit right now with these empty lanes. A lot of those lesser known guys would. Dee Brown was making eye popping plays I’ve not even seen in what few highlights remain of him. A long list of guys were doing shit that would be considered spectacular even by today standards. And that before they adjusted and started playing a style that would’ve been illegal for them.

I like Jamal Murray and Steph is obviously a GOAT but as finishers they aren’t some different tier than the best Stockton faced unless you mean a tier below. Jamal is nice. Hes not really out here going chest to chest with Hakeem these days though. Kevin Johnson was. And not just on his famous dunk either. That guy was 62 with maybe 16 feet of range and out there driving straight at headhunters like Karl Malone, and finishing between Oakley and Ewing.

At his best he was doing things that would remind people now of Wade or Ja Morant explosion wise even without the modern “sauce”

[Kblaze8855]

Ok I’m gonna be in this dealership for a minute now…

One thing everyone can note over time is how shot releases have gotten quicker across the board. Would Curry be able to do what he does with a below league average release? Kyle Anderson has a slow release and even with today's dribbling and his size he can't get a shot off in a face up iso. So a lot of these older guards even with up to date handles aren't getting a shot off if their release is slow. And getting good elevation on a jumper was also increasingly rare the further back you go. Another thing between say the early 80s and the 90s: How much better guys got with their off hand. It's not some new rule or officiating that ushered this change. There's other things too and there's also rare exceptions like Chris Jackson who really was held back more due to rules/offensive philosophy than anything to do with skill.

So the caveat: Why would a 6'2 guard in the 80s be working on an assortment of layups? He's avoiding the hard hits in the paint anyways. Is he working on his shot making if his job is to make a post entry pass? So, yes this is a part of it. But this is different from "He could do it but he wasn't allowed to". He also couldn't do it because he didn't even train to.

It's a feedback loop. MJ inspired an entire generation with guard dominant scoring. They then tried to do it and although they couldn't do it as well as he did it, they did a lot better than the previous generation. This incentivized more guards to learn how to do so. Resulting in more guards who can do so. More means the best are even better at doing so. Making it look even easier to do so in turn inspiring even more. And the league didn't mind helping out.

To be clear I do acknowledge there are some skills and tactics that are simply more advanced now. Some simply didn’t exist as well known moves to work on. The “Dirk” fade for example. I can show you George Mikan and Kareem doing it. I can show you Baylor and Doctor J euro steps. But moves back then weren’t broken down and emulated.

Lack of media coverage and film on every shot anyone makes limited how “new” moves could spread.

Today someone sees a nice move and it’s on tik tok in 5 minutes and 200,000 kids have seen it and plenty of trainers will master it and go teach some kid to do it. It’s an advantage for modern players but fair or not it does exist and it does enhance the “bag” of modern guys.

Moves spread like wildfire. The internet did that.

So yes…guys now have moves old guys didn’t think of because they didn’t have access to people who thought them up 3000 miles away like they do now. So I do happily acknowledge there is a skill gap on individual moves.

But at the same time?


I can’t ignore that half of the “new” moves incorporate illegal tactics from the perspective of the refs calling old games.

When this is a travel on Rod for taking 2.5 steps






But his godson Kyrie can take 3.5….


How are we blaming guys in Rods age for not working on moves like that more?

The extra steps let guys get pretty much anywhere they need to be to get the shot off.

Am I saying it’s unskilled? Of course not. I’m saying…they’re more skilled in ways the old guys couldn’t legally emulate. So what do I do with that?


Gary Payton could turn his back vs even a big wing and back down from 3…shot fake…step through and finish around a big. Very few small players today can.

But….

Theyre born in 2002. They grew up in a world where the nba banned 5 second backdowns. The result was two fold. Less post skill due to less reps when the players you emulate growing up don’t play that way(we all posted up just seeing Magic play that way). But the other side?

More people have handles. Like…rush hour handles. Rod Strickland had them. Isiah. Tim Hardaway. A few guys. But it was more standard to protect the ball by turning your back. Play keep away and let the play develop.

League makes that illegal. So now what? Whole generation never sees it. They all develop faceup handles which made them better.

To me…the guys in the middle who had both? Guys like Penny? That’s a skill advantage. Penny would absolutely tear today’s guards up in the post and still faceup and dribble through traffic.

But the only guys with that game now come from places that didn’t stifle that aspect. Guys like Luka.

Luka has old school slow flow back down or faceup punish you on the way to the rim skills. Hes slow but one of the best drivers because you can’t take anything away. He has a complete 90s and 2020s skill set.

Hes fat penny but less athletic. And hes utterly unstoppable when he wants to go inside. Almost no guards can do a thing with him.

Luka has a more complete skill set to me because he’s got Payton or Penny inside games but Harden faceup.

Both count and both are devastating but fans not used to the old approach don’t even acknowledge the lack of it in most.

I think someone being honest has to acknowledge the skill gap in certain areas in both eras.

Today obviously has shooting outside.

I just don’t know how much credit I can give to “skills” for moves that were flat illegal for the other guys.

And I’m not even talking old old school. Or just the elite players.

Jason Williams was already playing illegally by 70s standards 25 years ago but give him the open floors and ball handling rules now? The nba would have to dedicate a whole YouTube feed to him alone. Same with NVE. Steve Francis in a league without 2 bigs in the way with encouraged traveling, legal double dribble shot fakes, and 2 carry violations called a month(both on Jordan Poole)?

I just feel we do some of the previous guys dirty when they played more legally even in street ball than the nba requires guys to play now.


Doesnt mean they aren’t well trained and better in some aspects.

Just means I don’t know where to draw the line between better training and more freedom when the freedom is at the core of so many of the “new” moves and the setup to all the “new” finishes.

[Im Still Ballin]

Found a crazy (by modern standards) traveling call from a 1992 playoff game. Brad Daugherty at 2:00 in the video. The commentators said it was a good call. It seems the main difference between older interpretations and today is when the two steps start. Today it's when the ball is "gathered" but back it looks like when it either leaves the hand for the final dribble or when the ball hits the ground and comes back up.

[Kblaze8855]

Yea at the time a lot of things like that would be called. You see Drazen saying it was a walk.

You see people post uncalled travels from every era. But back then they were always looking for it. The “missed” calls now aren’t missed…the league just told the refs they aren’t violations anymore.

[Kblaze8855]

They got Nique too





Xiao always says Nique was traveling a lot. And by those standards sometimes he did. By todays? He would be the most legal slasher in the league. His pivot dragging on a hop step into a step through would leave him well short of todays road trips to the basket.

They wait for the gather to compete(saying it isn’t gathered till you can no longer dribble) to start counting and ignore that the guys carry the ball up to the other hand so the dribble is already discontinued before they start counting. They focus so much on the footwork they ignore the ball handling making it a travel to continue no matter what.

[Xiao Yao You]

They got Nique too





Xiao always says Nique was traveling a lot. And by those standards sometimes he did. By todays? He would be the most legal slasher in the league. His pivot dragging on a hop step into a step through would leave him well short of todays road trips to the basket.

They wait for the gather to compete(saying it isn’t gathered till you can no longer dribble) to start counting and ignore that the guys carry the ball up to the other hand so the dribble is already discontinued before they start counting. They focus so much on the footwork they ignore the ball handling making it a travel to continue no matter what.

should have been a triple jumper with all the hopping he did. Hop, skip and jump is at least 3 steps

[Kblaze8855]

He was more Jump and step then he was hop skip and a jump. He had that early Vince Carter hop step, but he will follow it with the step through which occasionally would be a travel. But by today’s standards? Nah. Clean as a whistle.

[Xiao Yao You]

He was more Jump and step then he was hop skip and a jump. He had that early Vince Carter hop step, but he will follow it with the step through which occasionally would be a travel. But by today’s standards? Nah. Clean as a whistle.

not much they can't do today

[FKAri]

I’m on my way to get an oil change so I can’t do this whole thing now but….




If you think Curry and Jamal are peers and nobody in Stocktons time were I….really don’t know what to tell you. I know you know who Kyries godfather was. I know you know guys like Kevin Johnson Who not only had layups, but would go over the top of you. I assume you know Sarunas. Gervin had a GOAT tier layup package at the 2(using similar training as Kyrie with his childhood broken backboard) before even that and going into Stocktons time. Jordan goes without saying. And plenty of guards back then were polished post players who could finish inside even guarded by bigs. Payton. Penny. Drexler was ridiculous layup wise. Nick Van Exel wasn’t elite, but he was throwing floaters off Odins beard when he consistently had two big men between him and the basket. And Stocktons time lasted till Baron Davis, Steve Francis and so on. He played 7 years against Iverson. Quite a bit with Tony Parker.

this is more an issue of people only crediting the biggest names and forgetting other people existed. And that isn’t even considering what any of those players would look like as finishers with the lanes as consistently empty behind their men as they are now.

Harold Minor wasn’t even good. But if you remember more about him than dunk contest highlights, you know, he was an absolute menace to keep from the basket one on one. Isaiah Rider would do some wild shit right now with these empty lanes. A lot of those lesser known guys would. Dee Brown was making eye popping plays I’ve not even seen in what few highlights remain of him. A long list of guys were doing shit that would be considered spectacular even by today standards. And that before they adjusted and started playing a style that would’ve been illegal for them.

I like Jamal Murray and Steph is obviously a GOAT but as finishers they aren’t some different tier than the best Stockton faced unless you mean a tier below. Jamal is nice. Hes not really out here going chest to chest with Hakeem these days though. Kevin Johnson was. And not just on his famous dunk either. That guy was 62 with maybe 16 feet of range and out there driving straight at headhunters like Karl Malone, and finishing between Oakley and Ewing.

At his best he was doing things that would remind people now of Wade or Ja Morant explosion wise even without the modern “sauce”

I didn't mention some of those guys for the same reason I didn't mention Ja or Rose. Where the finishing is coming more from leaping and length rather than touch. Even though Rose had a great layup package. You're also right that the size and space in the paint makes this an unfair argument. But guys still found a way to get in there from time to time and we could see what they had. We'll just have to agree to disagree that the standard of what was a difficult layup has only gone up every decade in the NBA. Even if the best layup ever made was some dude at the park in 1967 or so and so could do X. The bar has gone and continues to go up.

Ok I’m gonna be in this dealership for a minute now…

Can't find much to disagree with here and it seems you agree with me on a lot of things too. There absolutely are some skills that have degraded over time. There have always been tremendous talents over the years. And I covered in my last post that smaller guards weren't training for some of these things. I guess the difference is you're more sympathetic to the guys who could've done it whereas I'm just looking at the end result. Unfair or not. It is what it is.

They got Nique too





Xiao always says Nique was traveling a lot. And by those standards sometimes he did. By todays? He would be the most legal slasher in the league. His pivot dragging on a hop step into a step through would leave him well short of todays road trips to the basket.

They wait for the gather to compete(saying it isn’t gathered till you can no longer dribble) to start counting and ignore that the guys carry the ball up to the other hand so the dribble is already discontinued before they start counting. They focus so much on the footwork they ignore the ball handling making it a travel to continue no matter what.

The league and the refs have and continue to lie to themselves that they can determine what's a travel in live action play. The only difference is now they give you the benefit of the doubt. And even that is if they've seen it before or you've sent them a package of what to look for over an off season. Back then they you didn't get the benefit of the doubt. All that 0 step and gather clarification they did has less of an impact on this than their fallibility. A properly executed Euro was never a travel.

This is from 1957 (not a travel and no one bats an eye)
https://streamable.com/3v9fsc

[Kblaze8855]

I didn't mention some of those guys for the same reason I didn't mention Ja or Rose. Where the finishing is coming more from leaping and length rather than touch. Even though Rose had a great layup package. You're also right that the size and space in the paint makes this an unfair argument. But guys still found a way to get in there from time to time and we could see what they had. We'll just have to agree to disagree that the standard of what was a difficult layup has only gone up every decade in the NBA. Even if the best layup ever made was some dude at the park in 1967 or so and so could do X. The bar has gone and continues to go up.



Can't find much to disagree with here and it seems you agree with me on a lot of things too. There absolutely are some skills that have degraded over time. There have always been tremendous talents over the years. And I covered in my last post that smaller guards weren't training for some of these things. I guess the difference is you're more sympathetic to the guys who could've done it whereas I'm just looking at the end result. Unfair or not. It is what it is.



The league and the refs have and continue to lie to themselves that they can determine what's a travel in live action play. The only difference is now they give you the benefit of the doubt. And even that is if they've seen it before or you've sent them a package of what to look for over an off season. Back then they you didn't get the benefit of the doubt. All that 0 step and gather clarification they did has less of an impact on this than their fallibility. A properly executed Euro was never a travel.

This is from 1957 (not a travel and no one bats an eye)
https://streamable.com/3v9fsc

I feel like when we go with the “Fair or not….” argument it just downplays how incredibly unfair it is. It’s like making a list of the greatest college dunkers of all time, and David Thompson not being on it because the dunk was illegal while he was in college. Can you argue he should be when he literally never dunked in college? No. You can’t. but just calling it unfair and continuing kind of doesn’t explain the depth of the problem. When one side is literally not allowed to do the things you praise the other side for it isn’t just unfair. It’s almost stupid to even begin asking the question and including the disallowed side as inferior to the side who does things the other side can’t.

It’s like saying George Mikan is the GOAT goaltender because he played before goaltending was illegal. Hes the reason the rule exists. You can’t do it now. So how do I compare his goal tending ability to Hakeem?

One literally couldn’t do what the other did. The rules made it illegal.

Do I just say “Rules or not….Mikan was better at goaltending” like the fact he successfully goal tended more shots means he’s better at a skill Hakeem wasn’t allowed to show?

I feel like we go past “unfair” and into “What are we doing?” territory.

The people we consider great ballhandlers and finishers now are literally committing 25 or 30 violations A game. You can watch Kevin Durant stand in place and carry the ball on six consecutive dribbles. They are quite literally playing by a different set of rules. So how do we begin the comparison?

it’s not that the new guys aren’t great and incredibly skilled. But they’re great and incredibly skilled at a completely different game rules wise aren’t they? So how do we ask who is better between two groups of people playing different games? The games are as different as tennis and Pickleball.

[Norcaliblunt]

Tweakers tweak Op.

Anyone zoned out focused on a sport to the degree that owners, scouts, coaches yada yada yada are, are never going to be satisfied.

They literally are tweakers.

They’ll tweak with the game for the end of time.

[dankok8]

I feel like when we go with the “Fair or not….” argument it just downplays how incredibly unfair it is. It’s like making a list of the greatest college dunkers of all time, and David Thompson not being on it because the dunk was illegal while he was in college. Can you argue he should be when he literally never dunked in college? No. You can’t. but just calling it unfair and continuing kind of doesn’t explain the depth of the problem. When one side is literally not allowed to do the things you praise the other side for it isn’t just unfair. It’s almost stupid to even begin asking the question and including the disallowed side as inferior to the side who does things the other side can’t.

It’s like saying George Mikan is the GOAT goaltender because he played before goaltending was illegal. Hes the reason the rule exists. You can’t do it now. So how do I compare his goal tending ability to Hakeem?

One literally couldn’t do what the other did. The rules made it illegal.

Do I just say “Rules or not….Mikan was better at goaltending” like the fact he successfully goal tended more shots means he’s better at a skill Hakeem wasn’t allowed to show?

I feel like we go past “unfair” and into “What are we doing?” territory.

The people we consider great ballhandlers and finishers now are literally committing 25 or 30 violations A game. You can watch Kevin Durant stand in place and carry the ball on six consecutive dribbles. They are quite literally playing by a different set of rules. So how do we begin the comparison?

it’s not that the new guys aren’t great and incredibly skilled. But they’re great and incredibly skilled at a completely different game rules wise aren’t they? So how do we ask who is better between two groups of people playing different games? The games are as different as tennis and Pickleball.

Good post.

Also worth noting that all the way back in the 60's the dribbling officiating was even more stringent. Guys like Cousy and Oscar had to have the ball under their hand at all times. So yea... that's why the only comparisons that make sense involve looking at how good players were relative to their own eras instead of the time machine arguments.

It's kind of dumb that the NBA did this, either outright changing rules or changing how the officials call things because the game is very different. Other sports like soccer, football, tennis etc. have also changed over generations but far less than basketball did. Like you said, it's that guys today are playing a different sport.