Gen Z is really pushing the “The 90s were awful” angle lately.

[tpols]

This dude is a legit comedian. James Worthy guarding James Worthy.

It's actually crazy. Watch the beginning of this clip... guards on the left side of the court dribbling like TEN times in a row all right handed. And absolutely ZERO ball pressure. And the Lakers and the Jazz were considered great teams. This shit is crazy. We've been hoodwinked fellas.

[tpols]

Guy looks like he can actually ball too.



Hitting jumper after jumper. Left handed.

[j3lademaster]

All sports get better as time goes on, especially sports with skill nuances that can be learned like basketball or baseball. Objective records are all meant to be broken, ie 100m dash, pitching speeds etc. The reason I differentiate is because certain records like... basically the holy book of Wilt will probably never be broken because we aren't going to see that level of talent disparity ever again.

[Phoenix]

In 1996 Tonik Kukoc hit 40% from 3, Jud Buechler hit 44% and Steve Kerr hit 53%. MJ made 43%.

It was the shortened season.

If people think that those players couldn't step half a foot back and still hit the 3 at a respectable rate, if the teams decided to plan for it, then yeah, that's not rational.

I think most younger people who look at 90s don't really understand what they're watching. They don't understand the physicality and the packed paints, they don't understand that a semi-open midrange shot is as good a shot as you're ever going to get. That's why players took them constantly. It was considered your most consistent option, because you weren't getting open layups and you might not have a great post player, so your strategy is to execute decisively and when you see daylight you take the shot.

Personally, what I see is a very fast and dynamic game, not fast as in number of possesions, but in decision making. There is no room to pound the ball endlessly or try to get just the right matchup, you try to make quick decisions to get some space and then you make a move. You don't endlessly pass the ball around or endlessly dribble the ball.

If people ever played basketball like this, they'd understand how demanding it is and why tempo and fundamentals were very important.

All preaching to the converted. What I'm saying is if you had a young fan whose only been exposed to modern ball, and specifically if they wanted to validate their opinions on the 90's or some of these memes going around, what I saw last night in a snapshot would have provided them the ammo they wanted. Alot of these takes are just using snippets to formulate or confirm pre-existing views about the entire era.

[tpols]

All sports get better as time goes on, especially sports with skill nuances that can be learned like basketball or baseball. Objective records are all meant to be broken, ie 100m dash, pitching speeds etc. The reason I differentiate is because certain records like... basically the holy book of Wilt will probably never be broken because we aren't going to see that level of talent disparity ever again.

Did baseball get better? That's a sports the 90s and 00s seemed to be better than today. The mechanics of baseball haven't really changed in the past 30 or 40 years. Maybe 50 years.

Basketball mechanics have fundamentally changed in regards to shooting and dribbling tactics just watching the tape nobody in the 80s had handles like some of these dudes today and it isn't just palming rules because I seen Jordan palm 1000 times. They just have more moves and don't overuse either hand like the righties all did. And more importantly their shooting ability forces the defender to be up closer which makes a blow by far easier than if they were sagging.

It's just like a double whammy that the long range shooting not only gives you a 50+% bonus but it also allows drives and forays into the paint much easier to handle. Stars of the past would still be great but teams today would totally smoke 80s and 90s teams.

[FireDavidKahn]

This dude is a legit comedian. James Worthy guarding James Worthy.

Between this and seeing MJ get the Ben Simmons treatment, who can take those era's seriously anymore?

[Axe]

Did baseball get better? That's a sports the 90s and 00s seemed to be better than today. The mechanics of baseball haven't really changed in the past 30 or 40 years. Maybe 50 years.

Basketball mechanics have fundamentally changed in regards to shooting and dribbling tactics just watching the tape nobody in the 80s had handles like some of these dudes today and it isn't just palming rules because I seen Jordan palm 1000 times. They just have more moves and don't overuse either hand like the righties all did. And more importantly their shooting ability forces the defender to be up closer which makes a blow by far easier than if they were sagging.

It's just like a double whammy that the long range shooting not only gives you a 50+% bonus but it also allows drives and forays into the paint much easier to handle. Stars of the past would still be great but teams today would totally smoke 80s and 90s teams.

Depends. But a lot of stuff, even ones outside of sports usually become better in terms of being advanced than how they used to be before. For example, exotic cars and elite smartphones today are much more capable than what were offered in the past. Putting that analogy in the league, nowadays you can see the variety in the international talents existing have been popularized because of their rising numbers compared to what was seen bt. But yes, the rules and play styles have changed too. It's simply a part of the process as well. There would be no innovation if they keep on going for the same formula, i guess.

[90sgoat]

I can think of a bunch of sports that didn't get better.

I would argue pro-cycling didn't get better and outside of Usain Bolt, not really athletics either.

[ShawkFactory]

I can think of a bunch of sports that didn't get better.

I would argue pro-cycling didn't get better and outside of Usain Bolt, not really athletics either.

Speaking of generational or all-time talents is never a smart move when discussing athletics as a whole. Average 100 times are higher than they’ve been, despite Bolt being the GOAT. Baseball players are stronger and better across an entire roster despite Ruth, Aaron, and Bonds being as great as they were.

A few tough Euro players on the 90s doesn’t mean everyone could hang.

Focusing on the abnormal distracts from the actual norm.

[FKAri]

Did baseball get better?

Absolutely. And it's quite clear because you can look at objective metrics like average fastball velocity and movement. And then you have someone like Mike Trout who's able to hit these superior pitches at the same clip as Ken Griffey Jr.

[tpols]

Absolutely. And it's quite clear because you can look at objective metrics like average fastball velocity and movement. And then you have someone like Mike Trout who's able to hit these superior pitches at the same clip as Ken Griffey Jr.

Fastball isn't the only pitch. Pitching is about placement and catching batters off guard with different speed and movement... not just slamming it as fast as you can through the box.

The GOAT pitchers are all from past eras if you look up any list. And all the best homerun hitters are as well. It's not even close.

Nothing has fundamentally changed about baseball to the same degree it has with basketball. The 3 point revolution is on an entirely different level.

It would be like if past baseball players never swung for homeruns and now they suddenly did. That's what the 3pt line did.

[1987_Lakers]

[FKAri]

Fastball isn't the only pitch. Pitching is about placement and catching batters off guard with different speed and movement... not just slamming it as fast as you can through the box.

The GOAT pitchers are all from past eras if you look up any list. And all the best homerun hitters are as well. It's not even close.

Movement on pitches has gone up. Spin rate has gone up. Speed has gone up. The only reason there's no GOAT pitching candidates from recent years is because there's so much talent in the bullpen that starters don't throw as much.

Nothing has fundamentally changed about baseball to the same degree it has with basketball.

Which is why it's easier to argue the skill level has increased in baseball than in basketball. You can do a more apples to apples comparison.

[Carbine]

Randy Johnson, Maddux, Pedro, etc tell those guys pitching has gotten better. Those are the two filthiest pitchers and the best control pitcher possibly ever.

And Pedro/Randy did it in the steroid era. That was baseball's "golden era" in terms of performance, because it was literally the enhancement era for a large majority of the players.

[FKAri]

Randy Johnson, Maddux, Pedro, etc tell those guys pitching has gotten better. Those are the two filthiest pitchers and the best control pitcher possibly ever.

And Pedro/Randy did it in the steroid era. That was baseball's "golden era" in terms of performance, because it was literally the enhancement era for a large majority of the players.

There's one thing I can't check with stats for a pitcher: Location. I'd have to ask the catcher. I'd have to get in their heads. Maddux had tremendous control for example.

But everything else? I can check the tape and the tape tells everyone that the pitches thrown today are faster, have more life and more movement than ever. Are the pitchers better? Well, this is trickier because they are going max effort more than in the past. They are throwing until their arms fall off and not having long careers or even pitching a lot of innings. But that is irrelevant for the sake of this argument: The pitches the hitters are seeing are better than ever. Period.