Mike Beasley “if you still have MJ as GOAT you’re holding onto past”. Haslem agrees.

[John8204]

Jordan only has the 7 conference/finals appearances correct....Lenron's got 13

[WhiteKyrie]

What’s more odd, even given his insane individual talent, this is proof of why he couldn’t stay in the league. The dude is absolutely mental and unhinged. You mean to tell me, the greatest player of all time is the guy you routinely beat in Miami Heat one on one after practice. But a guy who is 50+ years old, proceeded to dog walk you in one on one, thinking that man plus his superior accomplishments, because he was better, doesn’t keep him as the standard? That’s just pandering to young people right now. Or oddly complementing yourself yourself because you routinely beat the new greatest of all time every day in one on one in practice.

[sdot_thadon]

4 vs 6 is a pretty big gap. The fact that Lebron was going to alot of finals isn't the same as winning championships.

Not really, considering Lebrons 4 was only a couple of wins from being 6, came up 2 games short twice. That's how small a gap it truly is without even touching the specifics. Now 11? That's way more than 4 or 6. It hits different if we're saying 2 more than a guy who couldn't ever win the big one, but not a guy who won several and could be called Mr. June if we're really being honest.

Jordan's a better scorer. Is that really an argument we're having now?

Jordan's a better scorer but Lebron is probably a greater scorer at this point. Did it for way longer and is the high water mark for scoring at 40k.

Jordan wasn't nearly as ball dominant as Lebron. That in itself makes him a better fit in terms of winning championships. Lebron didn't play multiple styles either - his teams and coaches always bent towards his style of play.

Right he was more shot dominant. Which made him alienate his teammates far more than a guy who actually passes them the ball. Lebron definitely played multiple styles. From the 1st Cavs stint relying simply on athletic ability and making every single play for his teams while they all just get out of his way, to playing games off the ball a bit more in Miami, working out of the post way more, anchoring the defense for a stretch and even taking a backseat in a finals series. To the 2nd Cavs stint literally doing it all, even coaching and being that closer we always knew he was more than ever. To the Lakers playing with a dominant bigman and not initiating the offense every time down. With several different coaches and systems. Along with tweaks to his game year to year.

The whole Jordan's help vs. Lebron's help is a matter of perception and a circular argument. Jordan's teammates are looked at as this incredibly amazing and unfair supporting cast after the fact and after the success. Meanwhile Lebron has plenty of years where he has multiple all-stars/HOFs on his teams and they come in with significant expectations then fall flat and below expectations and then instead of him getting any sort of blame his once highly touted all-star/HOF teammates are then labeled as a weak supporting cast. If Jordan didn't lead those teams to championships and/or to as many championships, people would not have been saying he lost with great teams. The excuses would've been Pippen isn't that great, Grant has no offensive game, Cartwright is old and washed up, BJ is too small, Kukoc is a soft Euro, Harper post-injury sucks, and Rodman is crazy and a team cancer. You know, similar things that are constantly said about Lebron's teammates, who actually in general were more dominant and were more considered great players before playing with Lebron then is the case with Jordan's teammates.

Lebron had help relative to what he often faced in the postseason. Maybe a couple of the Miami teams we could say he had an Mj like edge over the teams he faced, and still those 2 finals he faced a dynasty in the spurs and 3 mvp future hall of farmers in okc.Mj never faced either scenario in the finals. I reiterate my point. Neither guy has enough over the other at this point to act like it isn't close, the debate has literally been raging for how many years now?

[guy]

Not really, considering Lebrons 4 was only a couple of wins from being 6, came up 2 games short twice. That's how small a gap it truly is without even touching the specifics. Now 11? That's way more than 4 or 6. It hits different if we're saying 2 more than a guy who couldn't ever win the big one, but not a guy who won several and could be called Mr. June if we're really being honest.


Jordan's a better scorer but Lebron is probably a greater scorer at this point. Did it for way longer and is the high water mark for scoring at 40k.


Right he was more shot dominant. Which made him alienate his teammates far more than a guy who actually passes them the ball. Lebron definitely played multiple styles. From the 1st Cavs stint relying simply on athletic ability and making every single play for his teams while they all just get out of his way, to playing games off the ball a bit more in Miami, working out of the post way more, anchoring the defense for a stretch and even taking a backseat in a finals series. To the 2nd Cavs stint literally doing it all, even coaching and being that closer we always knew he was more than ever. To the Lakers playing with a dominant bigman and not initiating the offense every time down. With several different coaches and systems. Along with tweaks to his game year to year.


Lebron had help relative to what he often faced in the postseason. Maybe a couple of the Miami teams we could say he had an Mj like edge over the teams he faced, and still those 2 finals he faced a dynasty in the spurs and 3 mvp future hall of farmers in okc.Mj never faced either scenario in the finals. I reiterate my point. Neither guy has enough over the other at this point to act like it isn't close, the debate has literally been raging for how many years now?

6 vs 4 is literally 50% more and a big reason it’s not closer is cause in one of those 6 game series you mentioned he had the biggest choke job in history. Also, hes a lot closer to have losing some of his championships then Jordan. I don’t really see how that is close and anyone can imply they should get similar credit.

Jordan’s teammates didn’t play below their potential with him. Weve seen that be the case with plenty of Lebron’s teammates. He may have alienated them by not being nice guy but that’s not an issue on the court (while Lebron may have been a nice guy but he just had them traded and/or constantly held it over his management that he was going to leave if his teammates were not bettr) Even though he took a lot of shots, Jordan thrived in the triangle - the ball movement centric style of play of its era, that gets everyone involved which in every era has always been more conducive to championships ala the Warriors of this era and the Nuggets currently. These are the teams that people always believe look unbeatable. It’s no coincidence Lebrons teams don’t get that label despite large expectations given the talent on some of those teams. For the most part for the majority of Lebrons career it’s been the ball dominant-him do everything style of play - sure there’s some variation cause his teams and teammates change, which is usually large part due to him, but in general that’s been the case. I’ll give him credit though, the last 1-2 years hes been notably less ball dominant.

Again a lot of this is a circular argument. I’d say most likely guys like Kukoc and Rodman wouldn’t be HOFers if it weren’t for their success with Jordan and players like Kevin Johnson, Terry Porter, Shawn Kemp, Detlef Schrempf would’ve been HOFers if they won those championships vs Jordan. On the other hand, I don’t think Draymond, Klay and even someone like Tony Parker would be considered HOFers if it wasn’t for their success against Lebron.

[Norcaliblunt]

what stands out to me is how quick people jump to an assumption that those they disagree with are being paid. Like people don’t just……think things we don’t. There is and always will be a generational divide. People always favor The guy closest to them. The opinions won’t always lineup that neatly, but they’re going to lean that way generally. You don’t need clandestine phone calls and sacks of money left by the patio door.

A good percentage of the basketball world thinks LeBron is the best ever and an overwhelming percentage would say he’s top two or three. I don’t have to agree to know people come by the opinion genuinely. They might be wrong. But they don’t have to be paid to think it.

Billions upon billions are spent on marketing and you really think that doesn’t have any sort of impact on peoples perception?

Yeah straight up shills are probably more rare than how many people are accused, but you can’t sit there and act like money plays no role in the way people think.

There are definitely people paid to create narratives.

[Da_Realist]

This. If you believe Lebron had a better prime/peak, then this argument doesn't apply, but I look at it like this:

Lets say their careers overlapped and it was based on age - So at 18 Lebron comes into the NBA while Jordan goes into college, by the time Jordan is 21 he enters the NBA while Lebron is in his 4th year, At 28 Lebron is having his 2013 season while Jordan is having his 1991 season, at 31 Jordan is retired and Lebron is having his 2016 season, at 35 Jordan is having his 98 season and Lebron is having his 2020 season, from ages 36-39 Lebron is having his 2021-2024 seasons while Jordan is either or with the Wizards, etc. If you just look at level of dominance (so forget stats, completely different eras so admittedly its hard to compare), I would say Jordan would be the greater player from ages 25-30 and 33-35 so removing the 2 years he was retired or barely played. Lebron would be considered the greater player from ages 19-24, 31-32 and ages 36-40 (I'll go ahead and give Lebron next year over Jordan's last Wizards season). So Jordan would be considered greater for 9 seasons, while Lebron would be considered greater for 13 seasons, 9 seasons where Jordan didn't play or barely played and the other 4 seasons being Jordan either early in his career or in his late 30s. And lets say Jordan beats Lebron head to head in the playoffs most of the time if not all the time, and Jordan still wins 6 titles while Lebron has 1 or 2, 1 of which is while Jordan is retired, and Jordan has 5 MVPs to Lebron's 4 MVPs. If this is what happened, it would sound absolutely ridiculous to say Lebron was a greater player then Jordan because he has greater longevity and was a better younger player, better older player and obviously a better player when Jordan wasn't even playing, when Jordan was clearly a better player in the timeframe that mattered most which is when they were to accumulate most of their success.

MJ accomplished more in his 30's than LeBron did despite MJ only playing 5 seasons to LeBron's 9. Getting goosed up stats and missing 25 games per season faking injuries while dragging his team to 9th place finishes isn't much to brag about.

[SATAN]

MJ accomplished more in his 30's than LeBron did despite MJ only playing 5 seasons to LeBron's 9. Getting goosed up stats and missing 25 games per season faking injuries while dragging his team to 9th place finishes isn't much to brag about.

This is why we can't take you guys seriously anymore. Extremely casual take. I yes I am also old but AM DONE WIT DA 90s!!

You guys never kept up. Probably still listening to the same albums n shit complaining about new music.

[Airupthere]

This is why we can't take you guys seriously anymore. Extremely casual take. I yes I am also old but AM DONE WIT DA 90s!!

You guys never kept up. Probably still listening to the same albums n shit complaining about new music.

I’m never done with any part of the NBA nor music. They just pile up for me.

[Da_Realist]

This is why we can't take you guys seriously anymore. Extremely casual take. I yes I am also old but AM DONE WIT DA 90s!!

You guys never kept up. Probably still listening to the same albums n shit complaining about new music.

3 NBA titles
2 League MVPs
3 scoring titles
2 60+ win teams
1 70+ win team
in his 30's.

List LeBron's.

[SATAN]

No context, just "THE NINTIES! :)"

You don't know basketball.