Mike Beasley “if you still have MJ as GOAT you’re holding onto past”. Haslem agrees.

[Wally450]

Its like people can't have an opinion.

[90sgoat]

Beasley and Haslem combined probably struggle to notch 100 IQ.

[Kblaze8855]

Its like people can't have an opinion.

what stands out to me is how quick people jump to an assumption that those they disagree with are being paid. Like people don’t just……think things we don’t. There is and always will be a generational divide. People always favor The guy closest to them. The opinions won’t always lineup that neatly, but they’re going to lean that way generally. You don’t need clandestine phone calls and sacks of money left by the patio door.

A good percentage of the basketball world thinks LeBron is the best ever and an overwhelming percentage would say he’s top two or three. I don’t have to agree to know people come by the opinion genuinely. They might be wrong. But they don’t have to be paid to think it.

[90sgoat]

[QUOTE=Kblaze8855;14894922
A good percentage of the basketball world thinks LeBron is the best ever[/QUOTE]

Not really, well maybe if we count people who get paid to talk basketball, sure.

If you go on any social media and the talk is Lebron and MJ the vast majority are in favor of MJ and a lot of people hate on Lebron.

Lebron is only really popular with bball nerds, particularly the advanced stats nerds.

[Kblaze8855]

Hes pretty respected by basketball players. Probably not as much as Kobe but he’s up there. Hes probably a worldwide poll number 2 at this point I’d say. Number 2 worldwide would likely be him or Kobe. Average fans don’t really acknowledge much beyond that.

[RRR3]

what stands out to me is how quick people jump to an assumption that those they disagree with are being paid. Like people don’t just……think things we don’t. There is and always will be a generational divide. People always favor The guy closest to them. The opinions won’t always lineup that neatly, but they’re going to lean that way generally. You don’t need clandestine phone calls and sacks of money left by the patio door.

A good percentage of the basketball world thinks LeBron is the best ever and an overwhelming percentage would say he’s top two or three. I don’t have to agree to know people come by the opinion genuinely. They might be wrong. But they don’t have to be paid to think it.

I think Jordan was probably more dominant over the peers he faced than LeBron did, I just was stirring the pot and generating discussion tbh. But people who think Jordan was flawless are pretty ridiculous. There has never been and never will be a flawless player and even if there were, that doesn't necessarily make them the GOAT if someone else's positives are overwhelmingly better enough to make up for any flaws. Chris Paul is possibly the least flawed player (his only real flaws are height and too much unselfishness) I can think of and he's top 20 at best.

[sdot_thadon]

It honestly has just been a matter of time. When the accomplishments are comparable eventually younger fans will sway the conversation to the newer player. Their peaks are debatable.Skis are debatable. Some things they have an edge over one another but tbh neither has enough of anything to try and say it's clear at this point.

[SATAN]

Beasley and Haslem combined probably struggle to notch 100 IQ.

You weren't even a fan of basketball for the majority of the time Beasley was playing.

[3ba11]

It honestly has just been a matter of time. When the accomplishments are comparable eventually younger fans will sway the conversation to the newer player. Their peaks are debatable.Skis are debatable. Some things they have an edge over one another but tbh neither has enough of anything to try and say it's clear at this point.

^^^ that's your delusion because a lot of things are cut and dry like Jordan's superior winning, scoring, fits, chemistry, ball-control, less help, greater clutch, and teammate development (didn't rely on ball-dominance/impose spot-up roles that stall young players & create bad fits)

[sdot_thadon]

^^^ that's your delusion because a lot of things are cut and dry like Jordan's superior winning, scoring, fits, chemistry, ball-control, less help, greater clutch, and teammate development (didn't rely on ball-dominance/impose spot-up roles that stall young players & create bad fits)

By superior winning, you mean 4 titles vs 6. That's not a big gap, especially considering Lebron was able to spend like half his career in the finals. By superior scoring you mean more ppg. Meanwhile Lebron is the unobtainable all time leading scorer and has been in the playoffs for even longer. By superior fits you mean was only able to win in a specific system and got his ass handed to him without said system, meanwhile Lebron was able to fit and lead so many different casts and coaches to success with different style teams. Yeah ok. Lebrons teams have has crazy chemistry more times than we can count. That's not even a bad talking point it's lala land level bs. By less help you mean having more help than anyone else in your era where your sidekick is better than nearly everyone's best player? Snore. I can buy the argument that Mj is more clutch, But Lebron has more playoff game winners and is one of the most clutch mfers to ever touch a ball. Teammate development? Kwame Brown. You're right he relied on shot dominance instead that created the same problems but to such a worse magnitude they had to implement a system to give his teammates a chance to shoot the ball lol. You are Mjs worst spokesperson, I've seen you convert more people to believing Lebron is goat than anything . Mav is that you??

[3ba11]

By superior winning, you mean 4 titles vs 6. That's not a big gap,

Jordan won at twice the rate of Lebron (40% vs 20%) but more importantly, he had stretches where he mostly won titles and had unbeatable teams, while Lebron never did with any cast.

So Lebron is praised for mostly losing and being extremely beatable with every cast that he ever had, and this is considered better than Jordan mostly winning and being unbeatable with just Pippen. iI's looney tunes.

Lebron lost many times in his prime and in every way - upset losses, sweep losses, numerous losses with 2 all-star teammates, record losses... lottery.... worst-ever Finals records.. many losses with preseason favorites and 1 or 2 seeds... he's simply the biggest loser of all-time

[90sgoat]

You weren't even a fan of basketball for the majority of the time Beasley was playing.

He's the most blackhole player I've ever seen.

[sdot_thadon]

Jordan won at twice the rate of Lebron (40% vs 20%) but more importantly, he had stretches where he mostly won titles and had unbeatable teams, while Lebron never did with any cast.

So Lebron is praised for mostly losing and being extremely beatable with every cast that he ever had, and this is considered better than Jordan mostly winning and being unbeatable with just Pippen. iI's looney tunes.

Lebron lost many times in his prime and in every way - upset losses, sweep losses, numerous losses with 2 all-star teammates, record losses... lottery.... worst-ever Finals records.. many losses with preseason favorites and 1 or 2 seeds... he's simply the biggest loser of all-time

Mike gambled the entire 90s with loaded dice lol. There was never a team with the talent or more talent than his teams had(when there was in the 80s he lost more than Lebron). That's a nonstarter to any debate, you're upset because Lebron had to take different measures to get the types of teams Mj enjoyed yearly. And Lebron for the most part was able to be on the same level as other stacked or even great teams only because he moved when he needed to. Mj didn't face any atg level squads for titles. Not a single one.

[guy]

By superior winning, you mean 4 titles vs 6. That's not a big gap, especially considering Lebron was able to spend like half his career in the finals. By superior scoring you mean more ppg. Meanwhile Lebron is the unobtainable all time leading scorer and has been in the playoffs for even longer. By superior fits you mean was only able to win in a specific system and got his ass handed to him without said system, meanwhile Lebron was able to fit and lead so many different casts and coaches to success with different style teams. Yeah ok. Lebrons teams have has crazy chemistry more times than we can count. That's not even a bad talking point it's lala land level bs. By less help you mean having more help than anyone else in your era where your sidekick is better than nearly everyone's best player? Snore. I can buy the argument that Mj is more clutch, But Lebron has more playoff game winners and is one of the most clutch mfers to ever touch a ball. Teammate development? Kwame Brown. You're right he relied on shot dominance instead that created the same problems but to such a worse magnitude they had to implement a system to give his teammates a chance to shoot the ball lol. You are Mjs worst spokesperson, I've seen you convert more people to believing Lebron is goat than anything . Mav is that you??

4 vs 6 is a pretty big gap. The fact that Lebron was going to alot of finals isn't the same as winning championships.

Jordan's a better scorer. Is that really an argument we're having now?

Jordan wasn't nearly as ball dominant as Lebron. That in itself makes him a better fit in terms of winning championships. Lebron didn't play multiple styles either - his teams and coaches always bent towards his style of play.

The whole Jordan's help vs. Lebron's help is a matter of perception and a circular argument. Jordan's teammates are looked at as this incredibly amazing and unfair supporting cast after the fact and after the success. Meanwhile Lebron has plenty of years where he has multiple all-stars/HOFs on his teams and they come in with significant expectations then fall flat and below expectations and then instead of him getting any sort of blame his once highly touted all-star/HOF teammates are then labeled as a weak supporting cast. If Jordan didn't lead those teams to championships and/or to as many championships, people would not have been saying he lost with great teams. The excuses would've been Pippen isn't that great, Grant has no offensive game, Cartwright is old and washed up, BJ is too small, Kukoc is a soft Euro, Harper post-injury sucks, and Rodman is crazy and a team cancer. You know, similar things that are constantly said about Lebron's teammates, who actually in general were more dominant and were more considered great players before playing with Lebron then is the case with Jordan's teammates.

[guy]

If you compare the "old" phase of their career, after the age of 34 James had a better career by a wide margin. The reason why I don't feel he has a greater career than Jordan is what Jordan did in the part of his career that mattered. MJ could have made a stronger case for himself but he chose to retire twice as the best player in the league. James on the other hand is making sure he gets every great season he can or of his body. That does make him more valuable in terms of total impact, giving you more great seasons. But at their peaks Jordan did more. 10-time scoring champ, 5-time mvp and all that.

This. If you believe Lebron had a better prime/peak, then this argument doesn't apply, but I look at it like this:

Lets say their careers overlapped and it was based on age - So at 18 Lebron comes into the NBA while Jordan goes into college, by the time Jordan is 21 he enters the NBA while Lebron is in his 4th year, At 28 Lebron is having his 2013 season while Jordan is having his 1991 season, at 31 Jordan is retired and Lebron is having his 2016 season, at 35 Jordan is having his 98 season and Lebron is having his 2020 season, from ages 36-39 Lebron is having his 2021-2024 seasons while Jordan is either or with the Wizards, etc. If you just look at level of dominance (so forget stats, completely different eras so admittedly its hard to compare), I would say Jordan would be the greater player from ages 25-30 and 33-35 so removing the 2 years he was retired or barely played. Lebron would be considered the greater player from ages 19-24, 31-32 and ages 36-40 (I'll go ahead and give Lebron next year over Jordan's last Wizards season). So Jordan would be considered greater for 9 seasons, while Lebron would be considered greater for 13 seasons, 9 seasons where Jordan didn't play or barely played and the other 4 seasons being Jordan either early in his career or in his late 30s. And lets say Jordan beats Lebron head to head in the playoffs most of the time if not all the time, and Jordan still wins 6 titles while Lebron has 1 or 2, 1 of which is while Jordan is retired, and Jordan has 5 MVPs to Lebron's 4 MVPs. If this is what happened, it would sound absolutely ridiculous to say Lebron was a greater player then Jordan because he has greater longevity and was a better younger player, better older player and obviously a better player when Jordan wasn't even playing, when Jordan was clearly a better player in the timeframe that mattered most which is when they were to accumulate most of their success.