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  1. #1
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    Default Do you value peak (Michael Jordan) or longevity (LeBron) in the GOAT debate?

    Michael Jordan and LeBron James are undisputed top 2 players in NBA history and it's not even close.

    MJ played only 11 full seasons in Chicago Bulls... But Peak MJ is easily by far & away the most dominant player in NBA history.

    - After starting 0-3 in 90/91 season, MJ never again lost 3 straight games during a stretch of 629 reg season & playoff games.
    - MJ had a season of winning DPOY and averaging 35 PPG on great efficency
    - Highest PPG average in NBA history, including 10 scoring titles
    - Won a 3-peat, then took 1.5 year long retirement in his prime. MJ won a second 3-peat in 3 full seasons after making comeback

    Obviously, Peak LeBron didn't reach the same heights as Peak MJ. But LeBron's longevtity is absolutely unprecedented in NBA history

    - LeBron is a top 10 player despite being the oldest player in NBA currently as he will turn 40 in December this year
    - LeBron has played most minutes ever in reg season & playoffs
    - LeBron is NBA's all-time leading scorer for most points

    As the title says, do you value peak or longevity in GOAT debate?

  2. #2
    NBA Legend FKAri's Avatar
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    Default Re: Do you value peak (Michael Jordan) or longevity (LeBron) in the GOAT debate?

    To me, longevity just means sample size. In basketball you don't need a huge sample size to gauge a player's level. In football(either of them) it's more important and in baseball longevity is everything.

    Some people like to argue, "X would only make my team a contender for 5 while Y would do it for 8 years." I don't factor that in.

  3. #3
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    Default Re: Do you value peak (Michael Jordan) or longevity (LeBron) in the GOAT debate?

    Longevity is playing at a lower level for longer

    So the "lower level" part means inferior basketball, aka not GOAT basketball

    Otoh, Jordan is the only player that played goat offense and goat defense for his entire prime (88-98') - no one is anywhere near this - he was scoring champ and 1st team defense from 88-98'

    In addition to being the only player that played goat offense and defense for their entire prime, MJ was MVP over the longest stretch of time.. Specifically, Lebron was MVP-caliber for a 5 year period (09-13'), while MJ won MVP's throughout a 10 year stretch (88-98'), so MJ has goat longevity of MVP play.
    Last edited by 3ba11; 06-11-2024 at 05:35 PM.

  4. #4
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    Default Re: Do you value peak (Michael Jordan) or longevity (LeBron) in the GOAT debate?

    Peak by far, unless the peak is short where you don't get a proper sense of what the player was, but Jordan won like 6 championships, back to back 3 peats, like you got a very length look at him dominating the league both individually and team wise.

    This isn't like Yao Ming or Penny Hardaway or something where like injuries prevented you from really evaluating what they were as a player.

  5. #5
    NBA rookie of the year Da_Realist's Avatar
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    Default Re: Do you value peak (Michael Jordan) or longevity (LeBron) in the GOAT debate?

    LeBron played way longer but won less, dominated less individually, had less dominant teams (despite team-hopping and searching for the best players to play with) and lost as the favorite several times.

    Do I want to draft a once in a lifetime player that will dominate, have the most iconic career, leave everyone in awe, make the game global, expand viewership to astronomical levels and be talked about decades after he is retired?

    Or a guy that will reverse many of the gains the NBA had experienced under choice #1, peak at a lower level, win some but lose more, will only stick around for so long before he wants to run from the grind or play with some new best friend. He will gain a lot of individual numbers and accolades over the course of a career that spans across several different teams. His achievements are his achievements, not something a singular franchise can take pride in.

    He will basically treat the franchise like an instagram thot instead of a beloved wife, using her until a prettier one shows up. This guy is a rolling stone.

    I think the choice is easy.

  6. #6
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    Default Re: Do you value peak (Michael Jordan) or longevity (LeBron) in the GOAT debate?

    Quote Originally Posted by Da_Realist View Post
    LeBron played way longer but won less, dominated less individually, had less dominant teams (despite team-hopping and searching for the best players to play with) and lost as the favorite several times.

    Do I want to draft a once in a lifetime player that will dominate, have the most iconic career, leave everyone in awe, make the game global, expand viewership to astronomical levels and be talked about decades after he is retired?

    Or a guy that will reverse many of the gains the NBA had experienced under choice #1, peak at a lower level, win some but lose more, will only stick around for so long before he wants to run from the grind or play with some new best friend. He will gain a lot of individual numbers and accolades over the course of a career that spans across several different teams. His achievements are his achievements, not something a singular franchise can take pride in.

    He will basically treat the franchise like an instagram thot instead of a beloved wife, using her until a prettier one shows up. This guy is a rolling stone.

    I think the choice is easy.
    It's so funny how utterly incapable you are of discussing this subject without getting incredibly emotional

    Just completely unable to make rational arguments, nothing but getting in your feelings about your childhood hero.

  7. #7
    truth serum sdot_thadon's Avatar
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    Default Re: Do you value peak (Michael Jordan) or longevity (LeBron) in the GOAT debate?

    Quote Originally Posted by Drygon View Post
    Michael Jordan and LeBron James are undisputed top 2 players in NBA history and it's not even close.

    MJ played only 11 full seasons in Chicago Bulls... But Peak MJ is easily by far & away the most dominant player in NBA history.

    - After starting 0-3 in 90/91 season, MJ never again lost 3 straight games during a stretch of 629 reg season & playoff games.
    - MJ had a season of winning DPOY and averaging 35 PPG on great efficency
    - Highest PPG average in NBA history, including 10 scoring titles
    - Won a 3-peat, then took 1.5 year long retirement in his prime. MJ won a second 3-peat in 3 full seasons after making comeback

    Obviously, Peak LeBron didn't reach the same heights as Peak MJ. But LeBron's longevtity is absolutely unprecedented in NBA history

    - LeBron is a top 10 player despite being the oldest player in NBA currently as he will turn 40 in December this year
    - LeBron has played most minutes ever in reg season & playoffs
    - LeBron is NBA's all-time leading scorer for most points

    As the title says, do you value peak or longevity in GOAT debate?
    If you're not valuing Both, you're doing it wrong. The people that only take one or the other have neon obvious reasons for doing so. There's so many things and categories to consider in the goat conversation that if you're attempting to exempt the strong points of a candidate, you've already lost the debate.

  8. #8
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    Default Re: Do you value peak (Michael Jordan) or longevity (LeBron) in the GOAT debate?

    Quote Originally Posted by Da_Realist View Post
    LeBron played way longer but won less, dominated less individually, had less dominant teams (despite team-hopping and searching for the best players to play with) and lost as the favorite several times.

    Do I want to draft a once in a lifetime player that will dominate, have the most iconic career, leave everyone in awe, make the game global, expand viewership to astronomical levels and be talked about decades after he is retired?

    Or a guy that will reverse many of the gains the NBA had experienced under choice #1, peak at a lower level, win some but lose more, will only stick around for so long before he wants to run from the grind or play with some new best friend. He will gain a lot of individual numbers and accolades over the course of a career that spans across several different teams. His achievements are his achievements, not something a singular franchise can take pride in.

    He will basically treat the franchise like an instagram thot instead of a beloved wife, using her until a prettier one shows up. This guy is a rolling stone.

    I think the choice is easy.
    I don't know how anyone could disagree with this...

  9. #9
    XXL Im Still Ballin's Avatar
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    Default Re: Do you value peak (Michael Jordan) or longevity (LeBron) in the GOAT debate?

    Peak because the memories and impact are greater.

  10. #10
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    Default Re: Do you value peak (Michael Jordan) or longevity (LeBron) in the GOAT debate?

    why LONGEVITY is "back" loaded and never "front" loaded.

    the entire NCAA career is overlooked because 18 YO babies debuting in NBA start of mid-90s.

    if Player A plays full 4 years of NCAA amateur career and actually performs, it must be included in LONGEVITY.

    But 18 YO kid bench warming for 2 years or playing limited minutes is counted as full season in LONGEVITY.

    This makes LONGEVITY highly overrated and actually worthless.

    Give me Peak or Best years any given day.

  11. #11
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    Default Re: Do you value peak (Michael Jordan) or longevity (LeBron) in the GOAT debate?

    Quote Originally Posted by gengiskhan View Post
    why LONGEVITY is "back" loaded and never "front" loaded.

    the entire NCAA career is overlooked because 18 YO babies debuting in NBA start of mid-90s.

    if Player A plays full 4 years of NCAA amateur career and actually performs, it must be included in LONGEVITY.

    But 18 YO kid bench warming for 2 years or playing limited minutes is counted as full season in LONGEVITY.

    This makes LONGEVITY highly overrated and actually worthless.

    Give me Peak or Best years any given day.
    Bill Walton>Duncan then amirite

  12. #12
    The Great Wall of Text Naero's Avatar
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    Default Re: Do you value peak (Michael Jordan) or longevity (LeBron) in the GOAT debate?

    Both are important, though peak play holds considerably more weight for me. As long as one sustains their dominance long enough to prove they're not a fluke or one-trick pony, I won't penalize them for relatively shorter primes (e.g., Larry Bird).

    Longevity, like many aspects, is especially tricky to compare across eras. Training, nutrition, medical care, and technology have all advanced over time, which have helped lengthen players' primes in general. Not to mention, they're more affordable than ever now because of how much more money players make nowadays (even accounting for inflation). It's why although I don't ignore longevity, I don't value it as much as peak/prime play, the latter of which isn't as era-dependent.

  13. #13
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    Default Re: Do you value peak (Michael Jordan) or longevity (LeBron) in the GOAT debate?

    The whole longevity thing with Lebron is downplaying the fact that the dude had a top 5, and arguably top 3 peak, of all time.

    The fact the Lebron is a clear tier or two below his peak, yet still a top 10 player at 40, proves this.

    Basically you are asking do you want a 9.9 (MJ) for 11 years or do you want a 9.8 (Lebron) for 15 years?

  14. #14
    Embiid > Jokic SouBeachTalents's Avatar
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    Default Re: Do you value peak (Michael Jordan) or longevity (LeBron) in the GOAT debate?

    Quote Originally Posted by StrongLurk View Post
    The whole longevity thing with Lebron is downplaying the fact that the dude had a top 5, and arguably top 3 peak, of all time.

    The fact the Lebron is a clear tier or two below his peak, yet still a top 10 player at 40, proves this.

    Basically you are asking do you want a 9.9 (MJ) for 11 years or do you want a 9.8 (Lebron) for 15 years?
    Yeah, I find the longevity angle extremely disingenuous. People try to act like he's Karl Malone, but like you said, LeBron at his peak is still easily one of the 3-5 greatest players ever, and was either the best player in the league or in legitimate discussion for it for over a decade (2009-2020).

  15. #15
    Troll who tries to provoke you
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    Default Re: Do you value peak (Michael Jordan) or longevity (LeBron) in the GOAT debate?

    Quote Originally Posted by Naero View Post
    Both are important, though peak play holds considerably more weight for me. As long as one sustains their dominance long enough to prove they're not a fluke or one-trick pony, I won't penalize them for relatively shorter primes (e.g., Larry Bird).

    Longevity, like many aspects, is especially tricky to compare across eras. Training, nutrition, medical care, and technology have all advanced over time, which have helped lengthen players' primes in general. Not to mention, they're more affordable than ever now because of how much more money players make nowadays (even accounting for inflation). It's why although I don't ignore longevity, I don't value it as much as peak/prime play, the latter of which isn't as era-dependent.
    Disagree.

    Longevity is actually overrated. NBA is a young man and grown man's sport. Not an old man's sport.

    No nutrition. tech. training. medical care will get you back to 28-32. reverse your age. Also, Testo level decreases every year starting age 25!

    Many dont like to admit it. Testo level also effects brain function and mentality. Reason older player make costly decisions (TO) with Bball in their hand despite peak conditioning. No tech, medical care can reverse aging joints, loss of fluid, aging ligaments and tendons. nothing.

    prime peak window is always short. 28-32 yrs max. Some get lucky get to 33rd yr with great diet, sleep.

    My point is. 1998 ECF Game 6. MJ was 35. Last play of the game. MJ drives to basket. falls to the ground on his own. no tripping by defender. no pushing.
    this is age 35 telling you. mentally, MJ thinks he can get to FTs or "and1" but physically, his joints, muscles too old. He is 35 YO and Not 29. Hence, he falls flat straight to the ground.

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