Why hasn't Philly measurably improved post-Ben Simmons?

[ArbitraryWater]

No one said that and the RS was not the issue.


/thread

[ShawkFactory]

Nah... they really don't. They literally had the same role. Both assist leaders for their teams and best defenders who both don't need to be guarded and can't shoot. Their strengths and weaknesses are identical as we're the role they played.

Outside of 2016 Dray, Ben was basically a bigger more talented version of Dray. But when everybody turned on him he lost confidence. Dray has been 10x the asshole Simmons ever was but only catches flak briefly before being allowed to go on another rampage.

Being an asshole isn't the issue. Simmons strikes me, and likely his teammates given how they turned on him, as apathetic. You could never say the same about Dray.

[Wardell Curry]

No one said that and the RS was not the issue.


/thread

Yeah the 76ers have enjoyed a lot of postseason success since he left too.

Being an asshole isn't the issue. Simmons strikes me, and likely his teammates given how they turned on him, as apathetic. You could never say the same about Dray.

From an outsider's perspective Ben Simmons never seemed to care about basketball. He's seemingly more interested in money. Like Kuzma is more interested in being famous and money.

[Im Still Ballin]

Yeah the 76ers have enjoyed a lot of postseason success since he left too.



From an outsider's perspective Ben Simmons never seemed to care about basketball. He's seemingly more interested in money. Like Kuzma is more interested in being famous and money.

[Real Men Wear Green]

Every coach wants at least one guy with a personality like Green's. No coach in history would want their star to act like Simmons. Green will lose control and get himself ejected and suspended but overall he's a leader and a winner. Simmons is completely under control when he decides he won't play for you because he can't take criticism. Softest thing the NBA has ever seen.

[Real Men Wear Green]

Did Harden cost them on defense? Or did losing Ben cost them on defense?

With hindsight, obviously trading Ben was the right move to make. But that's not the point being addressed in this thread. The OP was simply about 2018-2021 Philly with Simmons vs. 2022-2024 Philly without Simmons, contextualized by the dominant narratives at the time of fallout and subsequent trade circa mid-2021 to early-2022.

You replace a good defender with a bad defender and of course your defense suffers. No one is saying there's nothing Simmons was good at. Philly did not trade him thinking that he couldn't help them win. They were begging him to play and he was refusing to do so, wanting out because when asked if a team could win a championship with Simmons at point guard Doc said he didn't know. And as scared as Simmons played vs the Hawks Doc shouldn't be blamed for a lack of conviction. Then the reason why they got Harden is that he was forcing his way out himself. It was a "garbage in, garbage out" deal driven be the power of petulant stars, not a team that thought Harden was the cure for everything that went wrong in the past. If Simmons wasn't forcing the deal it either doesn't happen or Philly gets a lot more out of it.

[Im Still Ballin]

First off, Ben simmons wingspan span is 7 foot. Drays is 7'1. Simple Google search. Thats a nothingburger difference.

But Ben's standing reach is longer than Drays and he has a higher vert and better athleticism metrics across the board. It was actually measured a few years ago that Ben Simmons had the highest standing reach + vertical combo in the NBA. He was a monster athlete.

Besides that their strengths weaknesses and roles were all extremely similar. Yes Dray has a more aggressive temperament and is different intangibly. No two players are ever going to be perfectly the same no matter what the comparison. That's an impossibility.

And yes, as a huge Jason Kidd fan I do see the comparisons in their styles especially young Kidd, Simmons just didn't have the hardcore mentality Kidd had. The will to win. Hollywood and celebrity might have ruined his drive for the game. Along with the scapegoating.

Shaq, Chuck, Gilbert Arenas, and Richard Jefferson (played with Kidd) have all compared Simmons to Jason Kidd.

Shaq on Ben Simmons: “He reminds me of Jason Kidd & Magic Johnson.”

https://x.com/ScoopB/status/1365170786122801153

There's obviously not going to be a perfect high-end direct comparison for him because he was/is extremely unique. If anyone can think of a better one than a 6'10", 240-pound non-shooting Young Jason Kidd, please speak up. Because I honestly can't.

All the other tall ball handlers shot the ball and didn't play defense like he does with the versatility and active hands. Nor do many of them run the fast break likewise.

Maybe a less athletic, taller, non-shooting young LeBron? I don't know. Trying not to mention young Magic.

[GOBB]

The bad shooting wasn’t the problem.

I’m willing to admit that maybe the expectation was what caused the downfall but that was the series we realized he wasn’t what we thought we was overall. And more importantly he wasn’t what the sixers thought he was. He clammed up and it got weird.

Still could have been a valuable player but he was built up to be something else.

This is all to it. The casuals (some sixers fans) will highlight shooting. When in fact Ben Simmons was neutered. Folks who post these advanced stats just don’t get it. Or they want to find ways to be contrarians so they try to use those silly stats to paint a picture. Bottom line is no one who watched Ben Simmons play in big games, big moments, in times of need can truly say “He delivered, showed up. Gave his all”. Too passive for a guy with his size, strength. I can’t stand Draymond Green. But one thing Draymond has is what Ben lacks. Dog. There is no dog in Ben Simmons. And people overlook it. Why? F*ck the fact he doesn’t even TRY to shoot. The mentality, the approach and demeanor he had during the play where he passes up dunking the ball only to pass it to Thybulle (not a finisher) is why people are frustrated and can’t stand Ben Simmons. The play sums up Ben Simmons in a nutshell. Even body language as if he made the right play and people are overreacting. You cant make a cat become a dog. Why folks continue to defend a guy that no one even knows if he will play next season is beyond me.

He was considered a generational talent. Magic-Bron caliber talent. He can “look” the part but he can’t play the part because he didn’t become the part. What has Ben Simmons done post Sixers? I’m sure the advance stat dweebs will show he hasn’t left. Well they can go change the cat litter because it stinks!

[GOBB]

Every coach wants at least one guy with a personality like Green's. No coach in history would want their star to act like Simmons. Green will lose control and get himself ejected and suspended but overall he's a leader and a winner. Simmons is completely under control when he decides he won't play for you because he can't take criticism. Softest thing the NBA has ever seen.

This. Draymond is a dog.

[ILLsmak]

You're being dishonest. You don't like Ben as a person and it's affecting your judgement.

I kinda agree with him on this, though. I think that one play really ****ed everything up. There were whispers before, but I think it would have been OK, but after he didn't take that lay up, that just ****ed everything up. It might not have been anybody's fault, but there was some sensitivity involved.

I can tell you that it takes a special sort to ball out after their team loses confidence in them. They do exist, but I don't think Ben is that guy.

The funny thing is, though, that play was really dumb in some ways, but it wasn't really that consequential. It's a scapegoat play.

-Smak

[Im Still Ballin]

I kinda agree with him on this, though. I think that one play really ****ed everything up. There were whispers before, but I think it would have been OK, but after he didn't take that lay up, that just ****ed everything up. It might not have been anybody's fault, but there was some sensitivity involved.

I can tell you that it takes a special sort to ball out after their team loses confidence in them. They do exist, but I don't think Ben is that guy.

The funny thing is, though, that play was really dumb in some ways, but it wasn't really that consequential. It's a scapegoat play.

-Smak

I don't care about all that pointless shit.

This thread is about why Philly hasn't measurably improved after moving on from Ben Simmons. RMWG was either being dishonest or clearly is just out of the loop. Everyone was saying that Philly would get better if they added a replacement for Ben that can shoot. Some even specifically said James Harden, who was a trade rumor before the '21 playoffs.

They added a max-contract player who could shoot in James Harden and they didn't measurably improve. Even with Tyrese Maxey becoming an elite-shooting 20+ ppg player as well.

Why didn't Philly measurably improve? Because basketball is more complicated than how many shooters you have on the court. Defense matters. Transition play matters. Size matters. Rebounding matters. Screening matters. Points in the paint matter.

[ILLsmak]

I don't care about all that pointless shit.

This thread is about why Philly hasn't measurably improved after moving on from Ben Simmons. RMWG was either being dishonest or clearly is just out of the loop. Everyone was saying that Philly would get better if they added a replacement for Ben that can shoot. Some even specifically said James Harden, who was a trade rumor before the '21 playoffs.

They added a max-contract player who could shoot in James Harden and they didn't measurably improve. Even with Tyrese Maxey becoming an elite-shooting 20+ ppg player as well.

Why didn't Philly measurably improve? Because basketball is more complicated than how many shooters you have on the court. Defense matters. Transition play matters. Size matters. Rebounding matters. Screening matters. Points in the paint matter.

I understand everything you are saying, and I liked Simmons. I’m just saying that was the split and prol why rmwg said that.

They are probably set to contend now for real. Ironically, simmons would fit on their team well.

-Smak

[Im Still Ballin]

I understand everything you are saying, and I liked Simmons. I’m just saying that was the split and prol why rmwg said that.

They are probably set to contend now for real. Ironically, simmons would fit on their team well.

-Smak

This should be their best team of the Embiid era. On paper at least.

You'd think going from Tobias Harris to Paul George would lead to an improvement in team performance. But you never know. Maybe they lose too much size, physicality, and rebounding? It'd be very unlikely but stranger things have happened. One small element subtly changing is all it takes to create a seismic effect on lineups.

The more obvious issue is health and its effect on availability. PG and Embiid will probably miss 20+ games as you'd expect them to at this point in their careers.

[Im Still Ballin]

And yeah, Ben even in his current form would be dope on Philly. He was great for Brooklyn when they still had KD and Kyrie and were all healthy together. They went 18-2 and then KD went down with an injury and the rest is history. I like him in Phoenix with KD, Booker, and Beal as well.

Anywhere he can just focus on everything aside from scoring.