#1 option gets 30 ppg... #2 gets 17-20 maximum.. others get 3-10.. that's 1-man team

[3ba11]

.
Here's a list of all-time producing, "dominant" 1st options that won titles without franchise player at sidekick (since 1980):

Hakeem........ 94'
Kawhi........... 19'
Duncan......... 03'
Dirk.............. 11'
Giannis.......... 21'
Jokic............. 23'
Curry............ 15', 22'
Jordan.......... 91', 92', 93', 96', 97', 98'

Franchise player = a player that was asked to build a team from scratch..

Btw, Wiggins wasn't 1st option as a rookie, so he wasn't building anything himself (he wasn't "the guy"), or from scratch.. Regardless, Curry still has one in 2015

[Carbine]

Why did you forget '11 Dirk

Are you ok?

[3ba11]

Why did you forget '11 Dirk

Are you ok?

fixed.. yeah i'm good.. thx for asking

[Kblaze8855]

Repeat it as much you like, but 20 a game from a second option was not normal in the 90s There are seasons they won the title when he was scoring more per game than Reggie, Larry Johnson, KJ and plenty of others. Your franchise player scored 20 if you were lucky 25 years ago. The other guys weren’t doing that until defense was illegalized and team ball died in favor of analytics suggesting only the best players should have the ball.

that’s why obvious franchise players like Grant Hill were scoring a flat 20 a game some seasons despite playing 41 minutes a night. But if you were going to stop comparing 90s numbers to today just because you know better you would’ve stopped 10 years ago so let me Just go run to Staples and get this laptop my goddaughter needs for school as you do this for 54 posts with the people not sick of it.

[3ba11]

20 a game from a second option was not normal in the 90s

Why repeat the same debunked lies?

Sidekicks in the 90's were "1b's" and elite producers that carried their teams to the Finals - Pippen is the only exception.. Terry Porter averaged 26 and 8 assists in the 92' WCF to carry the Blazers to the Finals (53% on threes with 6 attempts)... He did the same thing in 1990 Playoffs.

KJ averaged 28/9 against Hakeem's championship team in 2 different 7-game series - they would've won both times if Barkley hadn't wet the bed - surely MJ in Barkley's place would've destroyed Hakeem.. KJ also upset Magic's 1 seeded Lakers to make the 90' WCF.

Kemp dominated and took FMVP votes off MJ, while Stockton was an all-time floor general that carried the Jazz to the Finals by dominating the 97' WCF.

So every sidekick was achieving elite stats and carrying their team to the WCF or Finals, except Pippen, who was a low producer and mostly a transition player by comparison.. Ultimately, a peak capability of 20 ppg was not normal in the 90's (abnormally low) and this kind of "just a dunker and system points" capability was the lowest peak capability among 90's sidekicks (not on scouting report according to Shaq).. Since Pippen had the lowest peak capability and didn't require defensive attention, MJ was required to defeat max defensive attention (carry scoring load) at a level that no one in history is remotely close to.

[ShawkFactory]

Why repeat the same debunked lies?

You'd be the number one person to know why someone would do that..

[tpols]

The Raptors were the reigning 1 seed in 2018. Kawhi didn't exactly join a bad team. They added Ibaka and Marc Gasol as well so they were plenty stacked.

[3ba11]

You'd be the number one person to know why someone would do that..

I post STATS... I never lie because any statistical mistake is just a typo or bad memory - there is never an intentional effort to deceive.. furthermore, since all my arguments are backed up by stats, I cannot "lie"... again, except for typos or bad memory of the stats that I list.

otoh, Kblaze just blatantly said an obvious untruth for the purpose of deceiving and making it look like Pippen could score - he couldn't - or he couldn't score on a level that compared to other sidekicks in the 90's, who were elite producers - they carried their teams to conference finals and Finals, while taking defensive attention away from the 1st option.. They were on the scouting report, while Pippen's "just a dunker and system points" capability wasn't.. They were also sharing the scoring load with 3rd, 4th, and 5th scorers, which the Bulls never had.

Again, this guy just lied and said 20 ppg wasn't common among sidekicks in the 90's when it's the exact opposite - it's Pippen's low peak capability of ONLY 20 ppg that was uncommon - every other sidekick achieved elite stats that required scouting report and took defensive attention away from the 1st option - every other sidekick carried their team to the conference finals or Finals with elite stats, EXCEPT pippen... The worst sidekick that Jordan faced in the Finals was Terry Porter, yet he carried the Blazers to the 92' Finals by averaging 26 and 8 assists in the WCF (53% on threes with 6 attempts)... again, that's the WORST sidekick MJ faced in the Finals - Porter was basically Damian Lillard.

[3ba11]

The Raptors were the reigning 1 seed in 2018. Kawhi didn't exactly join a bad team. They added Ibaka and Marc Gasol as well so they were plenty stacked.

totally fair.. kawhi could be removed from the list, however, he was asked to build a Clipper team... he went about it the "lebron" way of recruiting another franchise guy.... but he was still asked to build it... whereas guys like klay, middletown, murray, pippen or terry weren't asked to build anything.

[Carbine]

Why would Kawhi be taken off?

Lowry was not a franchise player. Neither was Gasol at that point in his career. He carried the scoring load (30 vs 19)

Raptors were a playoff joke before Kawhi. A literal joke.

[ShawkFactory]

there is never an intentional effort to deceive..

Noooooooooooooo

[3ba11]

Noooooooooooooo

I guarantee 2 things:


1) you cannot provide a single example

2) you won't even try, because you know you cannot


carry on

[ShawkFactory]

Yea I suppose there is no way to manipulate stats to say what you want them to. Really difficult to omit important ones and certainly impossible to contextlessly throw them out there in an attempt to deceive and shape a narrative.

None of those things can be done. Certainly not by you

[3ba11]

omit important stats

Jordan was better than Lebron at all the other stats too.

Lebron trails Jordan in every defensive stat there is, such as SPG, BPG, DRTG, DBPM, all-defense, DPOY, yearly DPOY voting, and more... Lebron wasn't all-defense in his 30's and therefore wasn't required to be a great defender for the latter half of his chips, while Jordan was one of the steals leaders and 1st team defense for every chip, and usually the blocks leader among backcourt players.

Meanwhile, it's bball 101 that defensive rebounding is purely positional, while Jordan was better at offensive rebounds and team assists/ball movement.. It's wrong to think that a player with 18 assists did better than someone with 8 assists - higher individual assists isn't always better, so it's useless to compare individual APG, unless the player has an actual deficit in assist ability (i.e. cannot average 5 or 6 APG regularly, and not capable of elite assists like 10+ if needed).

Furthermore, assists and rebounds are role player categories, while Lebron's need for scoring help is why he needed so much STAR help.. Otoh, Jordan won with the least all-star help ever because he could carry the star category (scoring)... Btw, Jordan averaged more assists than Lebron in the playoffs for 9 years thru 2014 (thru half their chips) - Jordan barely trails Lebron in assists, so it's a complete misinformation to pretend that assists need to be looked at like there's a big gap or something, or like Jordan couldn't pass.

omit important stats

Bird, Magic and Jokic are better rebounder-passers than Lebron... Even if you disagree, it's obviously very debateable and could go either way.. So the point is that the "lebron-type" of scorer-passer-rebounder is exactly what Jordan already proved that he was far better than when he proved he was better than Magic/Bird..

So it doesn't matter if someone rebounds or assists better than Jordan because Magic and Bird supposedly did too and it didn't matter..

MJ was just too dominant as a 2-way player, while his scoring in particular was unprecedented then and now - no one has been a good enough scorer to undertake the biggest possession burden in the league (usage champ) and still play a championship brand of ball (win as usage champ), yet Jordan did it 5 times.

Ultimately, I've heard other people's reasons for Jordan being GOAT and they suck - they water down Jordan's career to a few soundbites like "6 for 6", or 3-peat... I describe exactly why he went 6/6 - his goat scoring diversity fit with all players and coaches, thereby allowing the highest capacity for chemistry, strategy/coaching, and ultimately, the highest team ceilings/Finals records.. Otoh, Lebron's lack of expert jumpshooting skill and the resulting high-scoring ball-domination imposes spot-up roles, which yields the worst chemistry, strategy/coaching, and ultimately team ceilings/Finals records.

[ShawkFactory]

assists and rebounds are role player categories,

Then why do you omit them when discussing role players? Couldn't possibly be to deceive! No way!