Why I think the Kobe-Pau Lakers would be just as good today

[Im Still Ballin]

They'd thrive just as they did before. The Triangle would be more potent with the freedom of movement rule. Not to mention the legalized third (gather) step. They have the positional/lineup flexibility to be versatile, just as they were back then against proto-modern teams like Phoenix and Orlando. They also have the personnel to increase their 3PAr if needed. But I don't think it's as necessary as you'd think.

I'll keep my argument simple:

1) Size and offensive rebounding are still incredibly valuable.

It seemed as though there was a period of time in the 2010s where transition defense and smaller lineups were prioritized over offensive rebounding and size. But in the '20s, we've begun to see a return to traditionally valued second chance points. We've seen Taylor Jenkins' Memphis (2021-22) and Tom Thibodeau's Knicks (2022-23 and 2023-24) utilize offensive rebounding to create elite offenses despite below-average eFG%:

MEM 2021-22: 5th ORtg; +2.6 rORtg [23rd eFG%, 4th TOV%, 1st ORB%, 23rd FT/FGA]

NYK 2022-23: 3rd ORtg; +3 rORtg [20th eFG%, 5th TOV%, 2nd ORB%, 11th FT/FGA]
NYK 2023-24: 7th ORtg; +2.9 rORtg [16th eFG%, 15th TOV%, 1st ORB%, 15th FT/FGA]
NYK PLAYOFFS 2023-24: 2nd ORtg; +5.1 rORtg [10th/16 eFG%, 2nd/16 TOV%, 1st/16 ORB%, 5th/16 FT/FGA]

Both Memphis and New York utilize Aaron Fearne-style Tagging Up tactics to maximize offensive rebounding chances without sacrificing transition defense.

2) Elite modern offenses can and have been accomplished with high-volume mid-range and post-up shot selection.

I'm surprised this wasn't about the 2018-19 Spurs. They had the third-best half-court offense despite ranking 26th in 3PM, 30th in 3PA, and 30th in 3PAr.

Its overall offense was third-best in the playoffs: +3.0 rORtg compared to the 2018-19 playoffs league-average ORtg. +4.1 opponent-adjusted rORtg if you adjust for Denver's regular season DRtg. The Nuggets had the 10th-best regular-season defense, coming in at 1.5 points better (-1.5 rDRtg) than the league average. So, it was a solid defense they were up against.

SAS was 30th in playoff 3PAr (.233); a whopping -14.6 r3PAr/-38.5%/61.5 3PAr+ compared to the playoff average 3PAr (.379).

It's only seven games but it's food for thought. I made a thread on this several months back but no one responded:

https://forums.realgm.com/boards/vie...02&hilit=Spurs

The KD/Kyrie Brooklyn Nets were doing similar things.

3) High-performing offenses can look any number of ways. Some leverage shot-making (eFG%) more while others lean on differing blends of FTr, ORB%, and TOV%.

4) Dual-big PF/C tandems have resulted in elite defenses in the modern era. See San Antonio from 2014-2018. 4.9 rDRtg while featuring Splitter-Duncan, LMA-Duncan, LMA-Gasol starting lineups.

5) There is no specific requirement for the number of three-point shooters or a vaguely defined amount of spacing for a lineup to be effective.

[quote]Another poor-faith stance is boiling the validity of a lineup to the number of three-point shooters or vague/undefined spacing. There have been many high-performing lineups in recent years with multiple non-shooters. Here are some examples:

(NBA.com and Basketball Reference lineup numbers vary slightly. This is due to a different possession formula I believe)



GSW's 2022-23 starting lineup. Featuring two non-shooters (Green, Looney), it was statistically far and away the best starting five in the NBA.

2023: S. Curry - K. Thompson - D. Green - A. Wiggins - K. Looney

- 27 games played, 331 minutes played
- 128.0 ORtg; 106.1 DRtg; +21.9 Net Rating (1st [min. 80 minutes played])

[Real Men Wear Green]

Even a team from 2009 would be utterly shell-shocked by modern three point shooting. Assuming Tatum isn't hampered by hero-worship the Celtics would beat them 4-1, the one loses being the game where the team as a hole shots terribly and maybe Kobe blows up. But the Celtics would have done of the best personnel to guard him anyone ever has. You beat the Celtics either with great scoring bruising big or an elite night of three point shooting. Kobe-Pau Lakers couldn't come with either. Bryant might be able to hero ball them to one win but Brown Holiday and Tatum are a rough trio to go through for any wing and then they have KP behind them (most nights).

[dankok8]

2024 Celtics are an all-time great team and them beating the Kobe-Pau Lakers (which they likely would) isn't exactly a knock on the latter. Those Lakers would still be contenders today. Fish/Kobe/Ariza is enough 3pt shooting too.

[Im Still Ballin]

2024 Celtics are an all-time great team and them beating the Kobe-Pau Lakers (which they likely would) isn't exactly a knock on the latter. Those Lakers would still be contenders today. Fish/Kobe/Ariza is enough 3pt shooting too.

How do they compare regarding full-strength SRS and playoff SRS? The '09 Lakers were pretty damn good IIRC:

This is a team that completely dominated the league and yet they're hardly talked about.

They won 65 gms with a 7.3 SRS and won a great conference by ten games. They were one of the best "healthy" teams ever:



2008 Lakers: +9.7
2009 Lakers: +9.0

2008-09 Lakers and Celtics. These teams were fantastic in an incredibly competitive league. The Celtics were +8.8 and +9.3 when healthy, and the Lakers +9.7 and +9.0 once Pau Gasol joined. Kevin Garnett’s injury robbed us of possibly the NBA’s greatest trilogy

Amazingly, of the top 40 healthy teams of all-time, seven are Pop’s Spurs teams. Five are Jordan’s Bulls. Four are Laker teams with Kobe Bryant.

And they were utterly dominant in the post-season:

The 09 Lakers rank sixth all-time in leverage-adjusted playoff SRS

https://fivethirtyeight.com/features...-the-warriors/

https://fivethirtyeight.com/wp-conte...0617.png?w=575

Ahead of teams like the 1992 Bulls, 87 Lakers, 08 Celtics, and 1997 Bulls.

Seventh all-time in ELO blend
https://fivethirtyeight.com/features...est-team-ever/


Ahead of teams like the 92 and 91 Bulls, 83 Sixers, 14 Spurs, and 72 and 87 Lakers.

The best NBA teams ever (according to Elo). The 09 Lakers ranked eighth all-time in overall ELO.
https://fivethirtyeight.com/features...ance-to-end-it


The 09 Lakers are higher than teams like the 92 Bulls, 91 Bulls, 83 Sixers,2014 Spurs, etc

The 09 Lakers had the sixth greatest peak ELO Rating in NBA histroy at 1790.0:


https://fivethirtyeight.com/features...ears-might-be/

They completely dominated in the post-season:

Their post-season adjusted SRS of 12.7[/b] was the sixth highest since 1984: https://fivethirtyeight.com/features...f-the-warriors

Here they're ahead of teams like the 85 Lakers, 87 Lakers, 08 Celtics, and 97 Bulls.

The 09 Kobe/Pau/Odom was one of the absolute the most dominant trio we have on record. [b]The Kobe/Pau/Odom 09 trio (+17.5 in 3739 possessions) was the one of the very best we have recorded.

The 09 Lakers were also very arguably the best passing team in the league. Their team passer rating was #1 in the league and #61 all-time: http://www.backpicks.com/2018/07/15/...gs-since-1978/

Discuss.

[iamgine]

Kobe and Pau would be fine but I don't think that version of Derek Fisher and Trevor Ariza can hang today. Fisher would be hunted by every guard and Ariza couldn't shoot well and only got hot in the playoff. Lakers relied heavily on them since Bynum wasn't even playing 20 minutes in the playoff. If we take Ron Artest Lakers it's even worse since he's taking horrible low percentage shots like Artest loved to do and Fisher was even older. I think it's obvious the Kobe-Pau Lakers would be worse today, but not because of Kobe-Pau.

[Real Men Wear Green]

2024 Celtics are an all-time great team and them beating the Kobe-Pau Lakers (which they likely would) isn't exactly a knock on the latter. Those Lakers would still be contenders today. Fish/Kobe/Ariza is enough 3pt shooting too.

There have been over 20 teams with as many or more than the Celtics 64 wins. Although I believe Jaylen Brown should have been All-NBA the Celtics only had one AllNBA player and Tatum was 6th (I think) in mvp voting. Just the two Allstars. The Celtics probably were better than most nba champions but but judged by wins or awards there are a lot of teams that did better.

But even if you take them out of the argument the Gasol/Bryant Lakers would be overwhelmed by the threes on modern offenses. I don't see them winning the West. Bryant and Gasol are great as cornerstones but the rest of the team would have to be different. No NBA GM today is putting out a team with Fisher, Artest, Ariza and Odom spreading the floor. They probably would develop into better shooters if they came up today but if they're the exact same players that they were that team would not work.

[tpols]

. But the Celtics would have done of the best personnel to guard him anyone ever has. You beat the Celtics either with great scoring bruising big or an elite night of three point shooting. Kobe-Pau Lakers couldn't come with either.

That's really not true at all. The Lakers had one of the biggest and best tandems of low post scorers in the league with Pau / Odom / Bynum and Kobe who was an elite post player who would also easily be the best player in the series.

So if defending size in the post is a problem for Boston there isn't even a team in the league today that had what LA had back then in that regard.

Kobe and Pau would be fine but I don't think that version of Derek Fisher and Trevor Ariza can hang today. Fisher would be hunted by every guard.

Fisher was a better defensive player than guards Boston faced in the playoffs last year like Haliburton and Kyrie. Not a better player obviously but don't know where you're getting this idea he'd be "hunted". Defensive hustle was probably his strongest suit as a basketball player.

And an Artest / Kobe / Fisher perimeter defense is much better than the weak backcourt defenses Boston faced in the 2024 playoffs. Artest in particular would lock Tatum up just how he did Durant. Too skinny and weak.

[Real Men Wear Green]

That's really not true at all. The Lakers had one of the biggest and best tandems of low post scorers in the league with Pau / Odom / Bynum and Kobe who was an elite post player who would also easily be the best player in the series.

Bynum averaged 15 points and Gasol was not a bruiser. Put them both out there and the advantage is solidly for the Celtics. Tatum has guarded Myles Turner and Bam Adebayo, he can defend in the paint. Gasol would be hopeless guarding Tatum on the perimeter. There's a reason two-big lineups have become less common.

So if defending size in the post is a problem for Boston there isn't even a team in the league today that had what LA had back then in that regard.

It is a problem when they have to deal with Jokic or Giannis. Lakers don't have a dominant gut like those two.

Fisher was a better defensive player than guards Boston faced in the playoffs last year like Haliburton and Kyrie. Not a better player obviously but don't know where you're getting this idea he'd be "hunted". Defensive hustle was probably his strongest suit as a basketball player.

Fisher would be the guy getting abused in the paint by KP when the Celtics forced the switch. He was not a special defender and even if he was the Celtics offense isn't at all focused on creating isolating plays for White or Holiday vs the opposing point guard. The Celtics want to exploit mismatches but when they do go with that kind of play it's going to be Tatum or Brown.

And an Artest / Kobe / Fisher perimeter defense is much better than the weak backcourt defenses Boston faced in the 2024 playoffs. Artest in particular would lock Tatum up just how he did Durant. Too skinny and weak.

Artest was a great defender in his prime but as a lake he was past his prime. And saying Tatum is skinny and weak I'm not sure that you even watch basketball. Bryant could make it tough for JB but overall the Celtics would be burying the Lakers from the three point line.

[iamgine]

Fisher was a better defensive player than guards Boston faced in the playoffs last year like Haliburton and Kyrie. Not a better player obviously but don't know where you're getting this idea he'd be "hunted". Defensive hustle was probably his strongest suit as a basketball player.

And an Artest / Kobe / Fisher perimeter defense is much better than the weak backcourt defenses Boston faced in the 2024 playoffs. Artest in particular would lock Tatum up just how he did Durant. Too skinny and weak.

Fisher was a decent defender but was particularly weak against quick guards. And with the guards we have today, he'd be hunted every night.

Sure the defense is nice but their offense would be a mess. Not enough quality scoring.

[tontoz]

The Lakers averaged only 6.7 made 3s per game.

https://www.teamrankings.com/nba/sta...ate=2009-06-15


This past season last place Orlando made 11 per game.

[tpols]

Fisher was a decent defender but was particularly weak against quick guards. And with the guards we have today, he'd be hunted every night.

Sure the defense is nice but their offense would be a mess. Not enough quality scoring.

Never heard Fisher couldn't guard quick guards before. That's a new one. But even if it were true Jrue Holiday isn't a quick guard. He's more of a bully PG. So that wouldn't be a problem in the Boston matchup.

As far as quality scoring goes, OP just showed that the Lakers production was elite. They relied on offensive rebounding for it to an extent, which makes the efficiency lower but provides extra possessions and wears teams down physically.

Anybody that's played basketball against a team much bigger than them knows how tiring it can become. With the Lakers trio of 7 footers and bully Artest swinging elbows in the paint from a size perspective Boston is like a middleweight fighter and LA is like a heavyweight.

So it's a contrast of styles. LA obviously wouldn't just get into a 3pt chucking battle. They'd have to force double teams in the post which we know Boston and many other teams today would absolutely have to do, work the triangle to get the role players open 3s, and generally just dominate the paint.

TBH... the Garnett Pierce Ray Rondo Celtics were better than the 2024 iteration. They had the bullies like Perk and Tony Allen to bang with LA's size as well. This current Celtic team doesn't have that.

[iamgine]

Never heard Fisher couldn't guard quick guards before. That's a new one. But even if it were true Jrue Holiday isn't a quick guard. He's more of a bully PG. So that wouldn't be a problem in the Boston matchup.

As far as quality scoring goes, OP just showed that the Lakers production was elite. They relied on offensive rebounding for it to an extent, which makes the efficiency lower but provides extra possessions and wears teams down physically.

Anybody that's played basketball against a team much bigger than them knows how tiring it can become. With the Lakers trio of 7 footers and bully Artest swinging elbows in the paint from a size perspective Boston is like a middleweight fighter and LA is like a heavyweight.

So it's a contrast of styles. LA obviously wouldn't just get into a 3pt chucking battle. They'd have to force double teams in the post which we know Boston and many other teams today would absolutely have to do, work the triangle to get the role players open 3s, and generally just dominate the paint.

TBH... the Garnett Pierce Ray Rondo Celtics were better than the 2024 iteration. They had the bullies like Perk and Tony Allen to bang with LA's size as well. This current Celtic team doesn't have that.

Jrue isn't the only guard in the league you know.

It was elite when they played. Today, they'd be quite mediocre. I'm not sure they will even make the playoff the way they played.

[tpols]

Jrue isn't the only guard in the league you know.

It was elite when they played. Today, they'd be quite mediocre. I'm not sure they will even make the playoff the way they played.

You don't think the Laker team that won B2B championships would even make the playoffs today?

See you guys are totally out of wack. And I'm a 3pt guy too... but this is just getting out of hand. A lot of you fellas probably didn't play ball and don't know the effect size and strength can have on a matchup. This isn't Gobert and KAT in the paint. It's a trio of bigger much better inside players. And Kobe.

We just saw a Miami heat underdog team with Jimmy Butler and Bam as their best players make the Finals and those two guys aren't good long range shooters at all. But they won with their grit and toughness.

It's a contrast of styles. Artest and Fisher spaced the floor from deep even if they weren't always on target you had to guard them. Hell... Artest was MVP of G7 in the 2010 Finals and his Mos iconic plays were 3s.

2010 wasn't 1980 or 1990. Guys were actually being guarded @ the 3pt line.

[Phoenix]

I mean, I suppose 14 years in sports years and specifically the current NBA is a long time, especially with the proliferation of the 3pointer the last decade. But Kobe and Pau did win a title 14 years ago lol, it's not like them as individual players are outdated or as a duo. 2008-2010 Kobe is comfortably the best 2-guard today and Pau would still be a top flight big, he'd probably exclusively play the 5. Kobe would have a greater greenlight to shoot the 3 with more spaced out courts. His volume and % will likely noticeably rise.

You'd then surround then with the requisite 3 point shooting needed of more modern( say post 2014) teams. And I can imagine someone like a Jrue Holiday next to Kobe in the backcourt.

[iamgine]

You don't think the Laker team that won B2B championships would even make the playoffs today?

See you guys are totally out of wack. And I'm a 3pt guy too... but this is just getting out of hand. A lot of you fellas probably didn't play ball and don't know the effect size and strength can have on a matchup. This isn't Gobert and KAT in the paint. It's a trio of bigger much better inside players. And Kobe.

We just saw a Miami heat underdog team with Jimmy Butler and Bam as their best players make the Finals and those two guys aren't good long range shooters at all. But they won with their grit and toughness.

It's a contrast of styles. Artest and Fisher spaced the floor from deep even if they weren't always on target you had to guard them. Hell... Artest was MVP of G7 in the 2010 Finals and his Mos iconic plays were 3s.

2010 wasn't 1980 or 1990. Guys were actually being guarded @ the 3pt line.

Yes, the Lakers that won B2B, the way they were constructed, I'm not sure they make the playoff. They might tho.

Miami Heat ah yes look at how much more 3s they shot compared to the Lakers.