Why I think the Kobe-Pau Lakers would be just as good today

[Real Men Wear Green]

https://www.statmuse.com/nba/ask?q=b...+tatum+in+2024

This link says he shot 45.5%. "Bam Adebayo hit 45.5 percent from the field versus Jayson Tatum in 2023-24." But that could be the o overall number vs the Celtics which isn't the same thing.

[HoopsNY]

Did you even know that the Suns offense is below average relative to today's teams?

Surely you don't use that kind of logic (plug and play) to determine the abilities of past teams?

The 2015 Warriors were #1 in TS% that year. Their TS% would rank them #24 this year. They would be ranked #16 in eFG%. And in ORTG they would be ranked #25.

Obviously when we look at these metrics, they don't tell the entire story.

[HoopsNY]

https://www.statmuse.com/nba/ask?q=b...+tatum+in+2024

This link says he shot 45.5%. "Bam Adebayo hit 45.5 percent from the field versus Jayson Tatum in 2023-24." But that could be the o overall number vs the Celtics which isn't the same thing.

And in the playoffs, statmuse has it listed at 23 PPG on 50% shooting. How effective was Tatum, really? I didn't watch the series, so I don't know. What I do know is that Gasol was one of the most skilled players in league history in the post. A matchup with Tatum would be a bigger disadvantage than having to defend Bam.

[Real Men Wear Green]

And in the playoffs, statmuse has it listed at 23 PPG on 50% shooting. How effective was Tatum, really? I didn't watch the series, so I don't know. What I do know is that Gasol was one of the most skilled players in league history in the post. A matchup with Tatum would be a bigger disadvantage than having to defend Bam.

Tatum was able to keep Adebayo from running wild. It wasn't a case of him shutting Adebayo down but after Porzingis went out the only real center was Horford (Luke Kornet was also hurt). Tatum demonstrated that he is a solid defense of the power forward position. He would not shut Gasol down but like with Adebayo he would defend Gasol at an average level. Gasol and the Lakers would need to step out of character and make Gasol a volume scorer to have a chance to take advantage and even if they did Tatum defends bigs at the level of a power forward. He's 6'9 or 6'10 and 240. He's played PF for the last two years. He has the build of the position and experience. On the other end Gasol never played defense on the perimeter. If Jackson doesn't abandon double-big line-ups how are they matching up with the Celtics? What defense do they play that has a good defense on Tatum and Brown without giving up open threes to everyone else? To say nothing of falling victim to plays where the Celtics force bad switches? In a 1-5 pick and roll/pop how do you keep KP from abusing Fisher? And when Porzingis and Horford are hitting threes how do the Lakers counter that while still protecting the paint? The Celtics will have 4 out of 5 guys out there that are above-average or better perimeter defenders to match up with Kobe Bryant. But how are the Lakers dealing with Boston's modern approach to basketball?

[tontoz]

Surely you don't use that kind of logic (plug and play) to determine the abilities of past teams?

The 2015 Warriors were #1 in TS% that year. Their TS% would rank them #24 this year. They would be ranked #16 in eFG%. And in ORTG they would be ranked #25.

Obviously when we look at these metrics, they don't tell the entire story.

Actually it does show how much teams have improved, and Boston dominated. No chance that Lakers team could be at Boston.

If you think otherwise then please share the rules changes that dramatically improved offensive efficiency league wide.

Some of the increased scoring is due to pace which won't show up in ortg.

[warriorfan]

Actually it does show how much teams have improved, and Boston dominated. No chance that Lakers team could be at Boston.

If you think otherwise then please share the rules changes that dramatically improved offensive efficiency league wide.

Some of the increased scoring is due to pace which won't show up in ortg.

freedom of movement and just all around how the game is called

[tontoz]

freedom of movement and just all around how the game is called

Those aren't rules changes, and there was freedom of movement 10 years ago. There just weren't as many shooters.

Thanks to Steph's popularity far more guys come into the league willing and able to shoot 3s compared to back then.

[tpols]

freedom of movement and just all around how the game is called

Not only that but the style of player has changed. We have people bringing up Myles Turner, JJJ, and Bam. Two guys who aren't even good in the post skill wise, and one of which is undersized comparatively. It's a different world trying to guard an elite 7ft post player in general, much less with an undersized defender, and even more less with a trio of them.

And sure... a guy like Pau would be hunted in the PnR mismatch game. Just how Chris Paul did him in 2011. But we just saw in the 2024 Finals Bostons star players shot like ass from 3. And that was abusing a lazy Luka whose even worse than Pau defensively. With the difference being Pau could actually punish them down low on offense, and he was playing with an MVP version of Kobe instead of Kyrie.

[AlternativeAcc.]

OP getting obliterated in this thread. This is why you can't analyze basketball from spreadsheets and an idealized view of past players/teams.

[tontoz]

Not only that but the style of player has changed. We have people bringing up Myles Turner, JJJ, and Bam. Two guys who aren't even good in the post skill wise, and one of which is undersized comparatively. It's a different world trying to guard an elite 7ft post player in general, much less with an undersized defender, and even more less with a trio of them.

And sure... a guy like Pau would be hunted in the PnR mismatch game. Just how Chris Paul did him in 2011. But we just saw in the 2024 Finals Bostons star players shot like ass from 3. And that was abusing a lazy Luka whose even worse than Pau defensively. With the difference being Pau could actually punish them down low on offense, and he was playing with an MVP version of Kobe instead of Kyrie.

And yet Boston still made 14 3s per game shooting 33.8% as a team in the finals. Kobe shot 32.9% from 3 for his career.

[ILLsmak]

Those aren't rules changes, and there was freedom of movement 10 years ago. There just weren't as many shooters.

Do you think it's possible that it took them awhile to A. adapt to the new rules in regards to not only playing but building teams, and B. adapt to how they were gonna call it for maximum efficiency? Something to think about. This league obviously wants scoring.

-Smak

[tontoz]

Do you think it's possible that it took them awhile to A. adapt to the new rules in regards to not only playing but building teams, and B. adapt to how they were gonna call it for maximum efficiency? Something to think about. This league obviously wants scoring.

-Smak

Actually they have changed the calls recently to help the defense, no longer giving the offensive player foul shots when he jumps sideways into a defender to take a shot. That used to be a free pass to the foul line all the time but wasn't last season.

[Im Still Ballin]

Surely you don't use that kind of logic (plug and play) to determine the abilities of past teams?

The 2015 Warriors were #1 in TS% that year. Their TS% would rank them #24 this year. They would be ranked #16 in eFG%. And in ORTG they would be ranked #25.

Obviously when we look at these metrics, they don't tell the entire story.

Pretty much LOL.

A team's ORtg, eFG%, and TS% are averages across 82 games against 29 other teams. How those other teams choose to play significantly influences the numbers of that individual team. You can't make direct one-to-one comparisons between two completely different league ecosystems.

[HoopsNY]

Tatum was able to keep Adebayo from running wild. It wasn't a case of him shutting Adebayo down but after Porzingis went out the only real center was Horford (Luke Kornet was also hurt). Tatum demonstrated that he is a solid defense of the power forward position.

How do you know this? For one, Bam never "ran wild" as he was never a prolific scorer to begin with. In addition, his best performance of his career came this year, against - you guessed it - Boston. So how did Tatum demonstrate he is a "solid defensive PF"?

He would not shut Gasol down but like with Adebayo he would defend Gasol at an average level. Gasol and the Lakers would need to step out of character and make Gasol a volume scorer to have a chance to take advantage and even if they did Tatum defends bigs at the level of a power forward. He's 6'9 or 6'10 and 240. He's played PF for the last two years. He has the build of the position and experience. On the other end Gasol never played defense on the perimeter. If Jackson doesn't abandon double-big line-ups how are they matching up with the Celtics? What defense do they play that has a good defense on Tatum and Brown without giving up open threes to everyone else? To say nothing of falling victim to plays where the Celtics force bad switches? In a 1-5 pick and roll/pop how do you keep KP from abusing Fisher? And when Porzingis and Horford are hitting threes how do the Lakers counter that while still protecting the paint? The Celtics will have 4 out of 5 guys out there that are above-average or better perimeter defenders to match up with Kobe Bryant. But how are the Lakers dealing with Boston's modern approach to basketball?

My argument was never about this bit, just about Gasol offensively and what he would have brought to the table given the matchups. I do think that matters, especially when you have a perimeter threat like Kobe.

[HoopsNY]

Actually it does show how much teams have improved, and Boston dominated. No chance that Lakers team could be at Boston.

If you think otherwise then please share the rules changes that dramatically improved offensive efficiency league wide.

Some of the increased scoring is due to pace which won't show up in ortg.

I don't think "improved" is the appropriate word. Steph, KD, Butler, Kawhi, Dame, etc never "improved," they more so "adjusted". I think there's a big difference.

Another example would be the changes that took effect in the early 2000s. Did players "improve" or did they merely adjust? And I never mentioned that the rule changes were the only reason, maybe someone else did. I think style of play and what the league and teams demanded was primary. Look at Carmelo's interviews when he spoke about how the Blazers and OKC both wanted him to play, as well as how the refs were calling him given the way things were changing.