Why I think the Kobe-Pau Lakers would be just as good today

[HoopsNY]

Actually it does show how much teams have improved, and Boston dominated. No chance that Lakers team could be at Boston.

If you think otherwise then please share the rules changes that dramatically improved offensive efficiency league wide.

Some of the increased scoring is due to pace which won't show up in ortg.

I don't think "improved" is the appropriate word. Steph, KD, Butler, Kawhi, Dame, etc never "improved," they more so "adjusted". I think there's a big difference.

Another example would be the changes that took effect in the early 2000s. Did players "improve" or did they merely adjust? And I never mentioned that the rule changes were the only reason, maybe someone else did. I think style of play and what the league and teams demanded was primary. Look at Carmelo's interviews when he spoke about how the Blazers and OKC both wanted him to play, as well as how the refs were calling him given the way things were changing.

[tontoz]

I don't think "improved" is the appropriate word. Steph, KD, Butler, Kawhi, Dame, etc never "improved," they more so "adjusted". I think there's a big difference.

Another example would be the changes that took effect in the early 2000s. Did players "improve" or did they merely adjust? And I never mentioned that the rule changes were the only reason, maybe someone else did. I think style of play and what the league and teams demanded was primary. Look at Carmelo's interviews when he spoke about how the Blazers and OKC both wanted him to play, as well as how the refs were calling him given the way things were changing.

The big rules change about the hand check was back in 2004 i believe, and the Kobe-Gasol Lakers won the title years after that went into effect.

It isn't about Steph "improving". It is about him inspiring a generation of young players to focus more on shooting 3s. Now those kids are NBA players and shooting/spacing have improved as a result.

[HoopsNY]

The big rules change about the hand check was back in 2004 i believe, and the Kobe-Gasol Lakers won the title years after that went into effect.

It isn't about Steph "improving". It is about him inspiring a generation of young players to focus more on shooting 3s. Now those kids are NBA players and shooting/spacing have improved as a result.

My point was that rule changes, style of play, ownership/management demands, etc all impact how the game is actually played and called. Melo discussed that he simply couldn't play how he wanted when he went to OKC and Portland. Now, this goes for any player within a system of any sort, but it wasn't one that was dictated purely by the coach to address the needs of the team. This was more in alignment with the vision of Adam Silver and the league as a whole.

The rules regarding hand checking resulted in almost an immediate boost to players' statistics by 2005 and 2006. AI, Kobe, LeBron, and even Ray Allen saw career highs in PPG by then. But I don't think they necessarily improved (though an argument could be made for that). I think it would more of adjustments being made.

Similarly, we've seen guys like Steph, PG, Kawhi, KD, etc put up career highs in efficiency numbers like TS%, but they're doing so well past the age of 32. And it seems to be a trend across the league.

Now, we can say that maybe Chris Paul became better at ages 32-34 because he put up career highs in 3pt% or TS% or whatever from 2017-2020, but I don't think that would be a fair assessment of him as a player anymore than looking at Steph from 2015 and comparing him to 2022 or whatever.

Point is, if you're going to assess the Lakers, then you have to adjust accordingly. Otherwise, they're in the bottom of the pit when compared to today's teams and I don't think anyone believes that.

[tontoz]

My point was that rule changes, style of play, ownership/management demands, etc all impact how the game is actually played and called. Melo discussed that he simply couldn't play how he wanted when he went to OKC and Portland. Now, this goes for any player within a system of any sort, but it wasn't one that was dictated purely by the coach to address the needs of the team. This was more in alignment with the vision of Adam Silver and the league as a whole.

The rules regarding hand checking resulted in almost an immediate boost to players' statistics by 2005 and 2006. AI, Kobe, LeBron, and even Ray Allen saw career highs in PPG by then. But I don't think they necessarily improved (though an argument could be made for that). I think it would more of adjustments being made.

Similarly, we've seen guys like Steph, PG, Kawhi, KD, etc put up career highs in efficiency numbers like TS%, but they're doing so well past the age of 32. And it seems to be a trend across the league.

Now, we can say that maybe Chris Paul became better at ages 32-34 because he put up career highs in 3pt% or TS% or whatever from 2017-2020, but I don't think that would be a fair assessment of him as a player anymore than looking at Steph from 2015 and comparing him to 2022 or whatever.

Point is, if you're going to assess the Lakers, then you have to adjust accordingly. Otherwise, they're in the bottom of the pit when compared to today's teams and I don't think anyone believes that.

Melo is a bad example. He was always a ball stopper. Karl used to complain about it in Denver. So did Jackson in NY. In Melo's world everything had to revolve around Melo.

You are just trying to revise history with Steph. He led the league twice in TS, in his 20s not his 30s. Durant had 4 straight years with a 63%+ TS with OKC. He played 81 games with a 64.7% TS at age 24. Kawhi had a 61.6% TS at age 24.

[Real Men Wear Green]

How do you know this? For one, Bam never "ran wild" as he was never a prolific scorer to begin with. In addition, his best performance of his career came this year, against - you guessed it - Boston. So how did Tatum demonstrate he is a "solid defensive PF"?

Him having one 27 point game is nice it's only one game. Game 5 he went 10 of 26 from the field but I'm not going to say that one game shows Tatum shuts him down. It's just one game. Also I doubt that was the best game of his career.

My argument was never about this bit, just about Gasol offensively and what he would have brought to the table given the matchups. I do think that matters, especially when you have a perimeter threat like Kobe.

If the Lakers played Boston the goal of both teams would be to win so if we're talking about some hypothetical Tatum vs Gasol consideration of how their individual match-up fits into, affects and is affected by everything else is relevant. If Tatum or Gasol scores 4 straight buckets and it's looking easy like they're getting hot, the coaches will make adjustments. It's not going to happen in a vacuum. And more importantly, this discussion is about who wins in a Lakers/Celtics champion meet.

[RRR3]

24 Celtics would legitimately sweep the 09 or 10 Lakers why is this even a debate. Some people refuse to admit teams have gotten smarter at basketball on both ends of the floor.

[Im Still Ballin]

Pretty much LOL.

A team's ORtg, eFG%, and TS% are averages across 82 games against 29 other teams. How those other teams choose to play significantly influences the numbers of that individual team. You can't make direct one-to-one comparisons between two completely different league ecosystems.

Damn. I hit a home run with this one. Still waiting for that reply...

[tontoz]

Damn. I hit a home run with this one. Still waiting for that reply...

Shooting is shooting. The ball goes in or it doesn't. It goes in more now because there are more good shooters throughout the league, who have better skills they learned from imitating moves of previous players This isn't hard to grasp.

[Im Still Ballin]

This guy thinks a team from 2010 would be just as good today

How many times did you edit this response?

First it was...

This guy thinks a team from 2010 would be just as good today

Then just an emoji...

And another...

Shooting is shooting. The ball goes in or it doesn't. It goes in more now because there are more good shooters throughout the league. This isn't hard to grasp.

And then the end result!

Shooting is shooting. The ball goes in or it doesn't. It goes in more now because there are more good shooters throughout the league, who have better skills they learned from imitating moves of previous players This isn't hard to grasp.

[tontoz]

The average team shot 78% from the foul line this year.

https://www.teamrankings.com/nba/sta...ate=2024-06-18

Back in 2006 the average team shot 74.6% from the line.

I am sure it was the "ecosystem" that made all the difference.

[warriorfan]

The average team shot 78% from the foul line this year.

https://www.teamrankings.com/nba/sta...ate=2024-06-18

Back in 2006 the average team shot 74.6% from the line.

I am sure it was the "ecosystem" that made all the difference.

It would be better to compare guards or forwards from the different years maybe.

Teams don’t play big centers as much now which are traditionally the worst FT shooters so that will drive down the averages in past years.

[tontoz]

It would be better to compare guards or forwards from the different years maybe.

Teams don’t play big centers as much now which are traditionally the worst FT shooters so that will drive down the averages in past years.

Jokic, embiid, Brook, Wemby, KP, JV, Kat....big centers can shoot now.

[Soundwave]

24 Celtics would legitimately sweep the 09 or 10 Lakers why is this even a debate. Some people refuse to admit teams have gotten smarter at basketball on both ends of the floor.

Disagree. They'd lose. Especially if we're talking Porzingis is injured.

"Being smarter" doesn't make up for the gulf in skill and talent either, Kobe and Gasol would be by far the most skilled players on the court.

[AlternativeAcc.]

Disagree. They'd lose. Especially if we're talking Porzingis is injured.

"Being smarter" doesn't make up for the gulf in skill and talent either, Kobe and Gasol would be by far the most skilled players on the court.

Kinda like Luka and Kyrie were by far the most skilled players on the court.

This revisionist history about Kobe is weird, he wasn't a good finals performer and brings nothing to the table that the Celtics couldn't handle.

[HoopsNY]

Melo is a bad example. He was always a ball stopper. Karl used to complain about it in Denver. So did Jackson in NY. In Melo's world everything had to revolve around Melo.

I didn't mention Melo to justify his style of play. I mentioned Melo to show that the league has determined that you simply can't play outside of the style that is expected now and obviously, that has a significant impact on everything else. It wasn't an organic shift.

You are just trying to revise history with Steph. He led the league twice in TS, in his 20s not his 30s. Durant had 4 straight years with a 63%+ TS with OKC. He played 81 games with a 64.7% TS at age 24. Kawhi had a 61.6% TS at age 24.

It doesn't matter if he led the league twice in his 20s. Steph's TS% from 2023 is the third highest of his career at 66%, at the age of 34. That's higher than his 2015 TS% (64%) where he won MVP. He averaged more points, had a higher ORTG, eFG%, and a higher TS%.

You might say, well, you're cherry picking one year and other players in history have done better than their prior MVP years in non-MVP years, but we see this amongst many of today's stars/superstars, so it's not an isolated incident. It's seems to be a trend which indicates that these players aren't better than earlier iterations of themselves. They've just adapted to a different style of play.