15+ yrs ago in 07 ISH vote Kevin Johnson as the 46th Greatest Player in NBA History

[L.Kizzle]

15+ years ago, the members of Inside Hoops voted Kevin Johnson as the 46 greatest player of All-Time in a top 100 player vote.

KJ was a nice player back in his day, maybe even a borderline Hall of Famer but back in 2007, ISH during a top 100 players of All-Time ranking, voted him as the 46 greatest player of All-Time.

Now, think of that for a minute ...

10 years earlier, he was not voted as a top 50 NBA player of All-Time. He wasn't even considered a snub.

Im 2007, ISH voted him in front of 13 players who made the NBA Top 50. Tiny Archibald, Pistol Pete, James Worthy, Hal Greer, Paul Arizin are just a few. He's almost 25 spots higher than #70, Lenny Wilkens.

He was also voted ahead of recent MVPs Steve Nash and Dirk Nowitzki. Apparently being a back to back MVP or being MVP and a Finalists wasn't enough to be ranked over a 3-time All-Star.

Get this, he's about 40+ spots ahead of some of his PG peers of the 90s. Mark Price and Tim Hardaway are 90 and 94, respectively.

From that list, seven players are not in the Hall.

46 KJ
89 Shawn Kemp
90 Mark Price
91 Penny Hardaway
94 Tim Hardaway
97 Tom Chambers
100 Mark Aguirre

Not sure how he jumped in front of the guys he was battling year in and year out.

[dankok8]

KJ was a beast. However he isn't very close to top 50. At this point, the top 40 spots are guys who were MVP's and/or led teams to titles. And as good as he was there are many players who are better. However he should definitely be in the HOF. He led Phoenix to two conference finals before Barkley ever got there and averaged 20/10 on solid efficiency for dang near close to a decade and led very good offenses.

[3ba11]

In talking about KJ, it's important to note that there were no high-scoring point guards/ball-dominators in the 80's and 90's..

That's because it used to be common knowledge that excessive ball-domination was bad, so point guards like KJ, Isiah, or Hardaway averaged 20/10 instead of 30/10 like today's ball-dominant offenses.

The only time they approached 30 ppg was the playoffs, such as KJ averaging 28/4/9 against Hakeem's Rockets in two different 7-game series - the bed-wettings by Barkley were the only thing stopping KJ from carrying the 94' and 95' Suns to the Finals.. Otoh, Drexler didn't wet the bed in the 92' WCF, so Porter's 26/4/8 with 53% three-pointers (6 attempts) carried the Blazers to the Finals.

Furthermore, how did Pippen rank in this top 100 and how does he rank IN GENERAL compared to someone like Damian Lillard?.. This is because the 90's had a lot of elite scoring and playmaking guys like Lillard, such as Tim Hardaway, KJ, or Terry Porter, and then guys that were better than Lillard like Payton, Stockton, or Penny.. By virtue of being elite scorers and playmakers, all these guys were better than Pippen..

Ultimately, despite being the only notable 90's sidekick that lacked elite scoring, passing, clutch, or efficiency, Pippen's lack of elite performance has been inflated by the winning spotlight into all-time status and media accolade, which makes him the most overrated player of all-time - NO ONE was inflated by the winning spotlight more than Pigpen.

[3ba11]

In talking about KJ, it's important to note that there were no high-scoring point guards/ball-dominators in the 80's and 90's..

That's because it used to be common knowledge that excessive ball-domination was bad, so point guards like KJ, Isiah, or Hardaway averaged 20/10 instead of 30/10 like today's ball-dominant offenses.

The only time they approached 30 ppg was the playoffs, such as KJ averaging 28/4/9 against Hakeem's Rockets in two different 7-game series - the bed-wettings by Barkley were the only thing stopping KJ from carrying the 94' and 95' Suns to the Finals.. Otoh, Drexler didn't wet the bed in the 92' WCF, so Porter's 26/4/8 with 53% three-pointers (6 attempts) carried the Blazers to the Finals.

Furthermore, how did Pippen rank in this top 100 and how does he rank IN GENERAL compared to someone like Damian Lillard?.. This is because the 90's had a lot of elite scoring and playmaking guys like Lillard, such as Tim Hardaway, KJ, or Terry Porter, and then guys that were better than Lillard like Payton, Stockton, or Penny.. By virtue of being elite scorers, playmakers, closers and leaders, all these guys were better than Pippen..

Ultimately, despite being the only notable 90's sidekick that lacked elite scoring, passing, clutch, or efficiency, Pippen's lack of elite performance has been inflated by the winning spotlight into all-time status and media accolade - this makes him the most overrated player of all-time - NO ONE was inflated by the winning spotlight more than Pigpen..

[Kblaze8855]

Happened entirely because one good poster and one awful one became obsessed with him and argued he was better than everyone incessantly for months. Wasn’t a widespread opinion just one two people pushed for and argued every round till they got him selected and then bailed.

[RRR3]

Happened entirely because one good poster and one awful one became obsessed with him and argued he was better than everyone incessantly for months. Wasn’t a widespread opinion just one two people pushed for and argued every round till they got him selected and then bailed.

Which two posters were those

[L.Kizzle]

Happened entirely because one good poster and one awful one became obsessed with him and argued he was better than everyone incessantly for months. Wasn’t a widespread opinion just one two people pushed for and argued every round till they got him selected and then bailed.

So you're saying a poster has an enough influence to do the same thing with Jermaine O'Neal? I'm sure some can get JO ranked higher than Chris Webber or Alonzo Mourning.

[L.Kizzle]

Which two posters were those

Glove, and don't know who the other one was.

[highwhey]

Happened entirely because one good poster and one awful one became obsessed with him and argued he was better than everyone incessantly for months. Wasn’t a widespread opinion just one two people pushed for and argued every round till they got him selected and then bailed.

thats exactly how politics works in america

[Overdrive]

In talking about KJ, it's important to note that there were no high-scoring point guards/ball-dominators in the 80's and 90's..
[...]
This is because the 90's had a lot of elite scoring and playmaking guys like Lillard, such as Tim Hardaway, KJ, or Terry Porter, and then guys that were better than Lillard like Payton, Stockton, or Penny..

[90sgoat]

KJ was pretty damn good, a lot like Ja Morant, not quite Allen Iverson, but closer to AI than to Stockton.

That said, Barkley seems to not have liked him very much. I remember a show they did of old timers in which Barkley said that he wished he played with a real point guard like Stockton and the others asked if he forgot he played with KJ and Barkley made it clear that he didn't think KJ was a real point guard. I guess KJ looked for his own shot too much for Barkley's taste.

[Kblaze8855]

So you're saying a poster has an enough influence to do the same thing with Jermaine O'Neal? I'm sure some can get JO ranked higher than Chris Webber or Alonzo Mourning.

I’m saying when your premise is based on a forum ranking that has like 10 or 15 consistent voters and two of them go on a campaign suggesting one guy should be next over and over and over and over and over and over after one of them runs a probably year-long “KJ is top 40” campaign it isn’t really an accurate result.

I was running some of those random list we used to make. All it takes is one obsessive type to keep saying the same name. I feel like I remember one of them actually telling me they didn’t think he was the best player not voted in yet, but they did think he was top 40 so they were going for that accuracy because he was better than some already in.

Just weirdo biased shit that throws off the whole thing. Always happens. I remember one of them somebody was voting for John Havlicek, but Kevin Garnett got in and then they switched to voting for Dirk. I asked them why Dirk was better than John now but he wasn’t the last few rounds and they said once Kevin Garnett got in they weren’t going to watch Dirk be way behind.

We are not serious people.

[Kblaze8855]

Glove, and don't know who the other one was.

GMAT. Here is Gobb in a conversation from 2008 about Chris Paul vs KJ

Where is Glove_20 to spam GMAT's email account with this thread link? lol

"GMAT!!! Its gametime. *insert link*"

"GMAT!!! Where are you? You there? *insert link* 25 replies so far. They have no clue!!!"

"GMAT!!! You read my last 2 msgs, I checked. Says you read them. Why would they lie to me? You better have a damn good excuse why you're ignoring me. Answer me!"

"GMAT!!! Its Glove_20 again, sorry for the last email. I got besides myself. I APOLOGIZE. Do you accept, yes_ no_ maybe_ CHECK ONE. Please."

"GMAT!!! Glove_20 again, maybe you arent getting these. But here is the link *insert link*"

This was common back then

KJ has gotten overrated on ISH. People give him the respect he deserves for being underrated by the general media, but sometimes people go too far. He was a great, great player. Some people make it seem like he's arguably the GOAT.

One guy who was an old suns fan Convinced one crazy person and they had a campaign that briefly had Kevin Johnson as one of the most discussed players on here.

[Kblaze8855]

This is what we were dealing with for what I now see was 2 years:

LOL, you're the one who doesn't understand, because until the late eighties, Isiah Thomas ran the run-and-gun in Detroit (the Pistons averaged 117.1 points in 1984, 116.0 in 1985, 114.1 in 1986, and 111.2 in 1987, and they took part in the highest-scoring game in NBA history on December 13, 1983, a 186-184 victory over Denver in which Thomas scored 47 points). While running the run-and-gun, he posted the same kinds of scoring and playmaking averages as K.J. in the run-and-gun, but with less efficiency.

Isiah Thomas, 1984-1987 (his four-season stretch of greatest productivity):

21.0 points, 11.5 assists, 4.0 rebounds, 2.2 steals, .467 field goal percentage, .774 free throw percentage, 3.9 turnovers, 2.97:1.00 assists-to-turnovers

Kevin Johnson, 1989-1992 (his four-season stretch of greatest productivity):

21.2 points, 11.1 assists, 3.8 rebounds, 1.6 steals, .500 field goal percentage, .843 free throw percentage, 3.6 turnovers, 3.07:1.00 assists-to-turnovers

In their greatest four-season stretches, Thomas' assists-to-turnovers ratio proved a little worse than K.J.'s, he averaged more turnovers per game and, more importantly, he was still much more inefficient from the field and the free throw line. What Detroit head coach Chuck Daly discovered was that because of Thomas' relative inefficiencies (relative to other superstars of his era), it did not pay to have him shooting as often and dominating the offense as much in a fast-paced game. The Pistons could only win a championship if Daly turned the roster into a defense-oriented squad that could stymie the opposition and thus compensate for his leader's inefficiencies. Henceforth, out went the offensive-minded Kelly Tripucka, in came defense-first players such as Dennis Rodman and John Salley, and by 1988, the Pistons were averaging fewer than 110 points per game and reaching the NBA Finals.

You're the one who cannot comprehend context if you simplistically break out the "two rings to none" argument. As I explained earlier in one of my posts a few minutes ago, basketball is a team sport, not an individual one. Isiah Thomas, like Bob Cousy, won championships not just because he was a great player and a clutch player (which he was), but because he enjoyed the defensive support that could compensate for his inefficiencies and that is typically necessary to win championships. Thomas won two rings to K.J.'s none largely because his team context was more conducive to championship basketball, not because he was necessarily the greater individual player. As I've noted, in 1998, The Sporting News named both Thomas and K.J. as its All-Playoffs Second Team guards for the decade of the 1990s. Thomas and K.J. played in three career Game Sevens each, and here were their respective statistics in those winner-take-all Game Sevens.

Isiah Thomas: 18.7 points, 9.0 assists, 4.0 rebounds, 2.0 steals, 0.3 blocks, .368 field goal percentage (19.0 FGA), .200 three-point field goal percentage (1.7 FGA), .765 free throw percentage (5.7 FTA), 2.0 turnovers, 4.50:1.00 assists-to-turnovers

Kevin Johnson: 31.0 points, 10.0 assists, 2.3 rebounds, 1.7 steals, 1.0 blocks, .424 field goal percentage (19.7 FGA), .250 three-point field goal percentage (1.3 FGA), .933 free throw percentage (15.0 FTA), 2.7 turnovers, 3.75:1.00 assists-to-turnovers

And all three of K.J.'s Game Sevens came with Barkley on his team, whereas Thomas never played with someone who dominated the ball quite to Barkley's degree. And, sure, Thomas had the bum ankle in Game Seven of the 1988 NBA Finals versus the Lakers, but then people fault K.J. for getting hurt. (By the way, Thomas' and K.J.'s teams each went 1-2 in those Game Sevens, again proving that basketball is a team sport. In the two Game Sevens that K.J.'s Suns lost, Johnson averaged 35.5 points, 10.5 assists, and a .967 free throw percentage, shooting 28-29 from the line. However, no matter how great the individual player's performance, it is still a team sport.)

So K.J. was every bit the clutch player that Thomas was, and don't be a "rings whore" who ignores team context. Also, after Barkley arrived in Phoenix, K.J. could not run-and-gun as much because the Suns moved to a post-up offense, and as the 1990s progressed, the entire NBA became more slowly paced, especially compared to Thomas' statistical heyday in the trigger-happy mid-1980s. Don't pretend that you comprehend context if you don't.

[Kblaze8855]

Post 2:

K.J. had a lot to do with some of those All-Star appearances by his teammates. Hornacek made his only All-Star Game playing next to K.J. in 1992, even though he later spent six-and-a-half seasons alongside John Stockton in Utah's backcourt. Dan Majerle never averaged as many as 11.0 points in his seven seasons after leaving K.J., immediately dropping from 15.6 with Phoenix in 1995 to 10.6 in Cleveland in 1996. Part of that decline can be explained by Majerle playing fewer minutes on a new team, but he was still just 30 years old and could have played more had his new coaching staff deemed him effective enough. Without K.J., though, that wasn't the case, even though Majerle had joined one of the better point guards of the day in Terrell Brandon (and later Tim Hardaway in Miami). Still, he couldn't come close to duplicating his success alongside K.J. in Phoenix.

As for Tom Chambers, he'd made one All-Star Game in seven seasons prior to joining K.J., but he then made the All-Star team three years in a row as soon as he started running with Johnson. Check out these K.J.-Chambers hook-ups:

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/for...c&daysprune=-1

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8_jBW...elated&search=

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SN4-b...elated&search=

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UDyBS...elated&search=

And Eddie Johnson received his only NBA honor (1989 Sixth Man of the Year) playing next to K.J.

Let me also quote a recent post of mine on another board to reveal more about the K.J.-Chambers dynamic and how K.J. had made the Sixers' "Barkley haul" (Hornacek, Tim Perry, and Andrew Lang) seem quite attractive at the time.

...

In fact, Tom Chambers once called K.J. "the guy who made me the player I am," at Chambers' own Ring of Honor ceremony in 1999.

http://www.nba.com/suns/news/column_...av=ArticleList

Playing with K.J. allowed Chambers to set the Suns' single-season scoring average record two years in a row with 25.7 in 1989 and 27.2 in 1990, the latter mark remaining a franchise record. Playing with K.J. also allowed Chambers to set the Suns' single-game scoring record with 60 points, just a month after scoring 56.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/...O19900324.html

http://www.basketball-reference.com/...W19900218.html

Conversely, Shawn Kemp never averaged 20.0 points per game with Payton, a mark that he surely would have reached with K.J. Or look at the three players whom Phoenix dealt to Philadelphia in the Charles Barkley blockbuster of June 1992. On the surface, it seemed as if the Sixers were receiving quite a haul of talent, three starters off a 53-win team (Jeff Hornacek, Tim Perry, and Andrew Lang) who had shot the following respective field goal percentages during the '92 season: .512, .523, .522. Three starters off a 53-win team who each shot well over 50% from the field should have helped the Sixers. However, as Philadelphia soon found out, those players were not nearly as effective once removed from K.J., even though Hornacek was a fine guard either way. Indeed, in Philadelphia in '93, Hornacek, Perry, and Lang shot just .470, .468, and .425 from the field, respectively. Perhaps the Sixers should have listened to Clyde Drexler after Perry scored 27 points in Game Three of the 1992 Western Conference Semifinals, with K.J. posting 16 points and 16 assists after going for 35 points (including 18 in a row, 22 in the third quarter, and 33 in the second half, shooting 16-16 from the free throw line) in Game Two and before recording 35 points and 14 assists in Game Four. Here was Drexler's quotation in the Los Angeles Times.

Johnson and Hornacek Put Run, Fun in Suns; [Home Edition] Los Angeles Times (pre-1997 Fulltext). Los Angeles, Calif.: May 10, 1992. pg. 5

Kevin Johnson, who runs the Phoenix offense, had 16 points and 16 assists.

"We ran up and down the court, and I found (Tim) Perry open, and pretty soon it just opened up for everybody," Johnson said

... "I don't think we stopped Kevin (Johnson) because he was able to get the ball to Perry and those other guys. I believe he might as well have scored Perry's 27 points," Drexler said.

K.J. actually made Perry seem like an attractive commodity to Philadelphia.

I'll also quote Hornacek's letter to K.J. in 2001:

I also want to thank you for helping to make my career what it was. I wasn't happy at first ... Cotton made you the point guard without even having to beat me out, but obviously he knew what he was doing! I learned quickly, as did everyone else who has had the privilege of playing along side of you, that my game would benefit from having you at point guard. You are one of few players who can elevate the play of those around you.

http://www.nba.com/suns/news/kjohnso...av=ArticleList