MJ beat Ewing, Shaq, Zo & Smits 7x with Pippen MIA, so why can't Lebron beat Dwight..

[3ba11]

.
as a bigger favorite with more help on both sides of the ball (better team defense and better offense from Mo)?

2009 MO VS DWIGHT....... 18 on 38%.... #3 team defense

1989 PIP VS EWING......... 15 on 40%... #11 team defense
1992 PIP VS EWING......... 16 on 40%.... #4 team defense
1997 PIP VS ALONZO....... 17 on 42%.... #4 team defense
1998 PIP vs SMITS........... 16 on 39%.... #3 team defense
1996 PIP VS EWING'......... 15 on 33%.... #1 team defense
1996 PIP VS SHAQ'........... 18 on 45%.... #1 team defense

The 2009 Cavs were one of the 10 biggest favorites in history to lose a playoff series

[warriorfan]

Mo was nice. His skill set was a premium in that era. He could get buckets.



post prime mo dropping an easy 50

dude got game

[3ba11]

Mo was nice. His skill set was a premium in that era. He could get buckets.



post prime mo dropping an easy 50

dude got game

Yeah Mo was easily a better scorer, spacer, and clutch player than Pippen, while the Cavs had better defensive help than the first three-peat Bulls.

Due to Varejao, Ben Wallace, Zydrunas and all-defensive experience in the backcourt (Snow, Hughes), the 07' Cavs were a top 5 defense without Lebron being considered a great defender - he wasn't all-defense until 09', yet the Cavs still had better defensive ranking than the 1st three-peat Bulls, and better scoring help too.

[ShawkFactory]

ANOTHER Mo vs Pippen thread?

Truly astounding

[3ba11]

ANOTHER Mo vs Pippen thread?

Truly astounding

The thread title shows that MJ won 7 times in similar situation to the 09' ECF - the OP numbers speak for themselves.

Mo might be a top 175 player all-time, while Pippen's numbers and performance confirm a top 120-150 player..... unfortunately ,the winning spotlight inflated him to all-time status and media accolade... Since no one benefitted from the winning spotlight more than Pippen, he's the most overrated player ever.

And yes, numbers like PER, WS/48, scoring and efficiency confirm that Lebron received 4 guys that were better than 1990 Pippen (Hughes, Zydrunas, Mo, Jamison), but he couldn't develop or win anything with them like MJ did with Pippen....

People forget that Jamison was a 20k scorer that outplayed Lebron in the 07' Playoffs in a heads-to-head matchup, so it's pretty nice to have a better scorer than Pippen as your THIRD option, and better team defense as well than the 1st three-peat Bulls.

[sdot_thadon]

Pippen was a perennial allstar and all nba level player. Mo made the allstar team as an injury replacement after crying in the media about not making it. Levels.

/thread.

[3ba11]

Pippen was a perennial allstar and all nba level player. Mo made the allstar team as an injury replacement after crying in the media about not making it. Levels.

/thread.

Jordan, Malone, Hakeem and many others didn't need all-stars or All-NBA teammates to beat Ewing, Shaq, Dwight, or other great centers - these centers are routinely destroyed by underdogs and rookie casts with no all-stars, let alone a league favorite and 6th-year organic juggernaut like the 09' Cavs (multiple all-stars).

Accordingly, this isn't a comparison of Mo vs Pippen - it's a demonstration that lebron lost with more help on both sides of the ball... There's no point in comparing the individual defense of Mo and Pippen because there are many ways to skin a cat defensively, and the Cavs had better overall personnel and defensive ranking.

And the Cavs had better defensive ranking since 2007, which was long before Lebron was considered a great defender or all-defense, so the Cavs simply had better defensive help than the 1st three-peat Bulls..

This includes athletic guards compared to non-athletes like Paxson or BJ, while the frontcourt of Ben Wallace, Varejao, and Zydrunas is better than having 3 horace grants.. Previous Cavs teams had all-defensive experience in the backcourt with Snow and Hughes, so Lebron always had more good defensive teammates and rim protection than MJ had, while also having better scoring help.. The 06-10' Cavs simply had more help on both sides of the ball than the 1st three-peat Bulls.

[sdot_thadon]

Jordan, Malone, Hakeem and many others didn't need all-stars or All-NBA teammates to beat Ewing, Shaq, Dwight, or other great centers - these centers are routinely destroyed by underdogs and rookie casts with no all-stars, let alone a league favorite and 6th-year organic juggernaut like the 09' Cavs (multiple all-stars).

Accordingly, this isn't a comparison of Mo vs Pippen - it's a demonstration that lebron lost with more help on both sides of the ball... There's no point in comparing the individual defense of Mo and Pippen because there are many ways to skin a cat defensively, and the Cavs had better overall personnel and defensive ranking.

And the Cavs had better defensive ranking since 2007, which was long before Lebron was considered a great defender or all-defense, so the Cavs simply had better defensive help than the 1st three-peat Bulls..

This includes athletic guards compared to non-athletes like Paxson or BJ, while the frontcourt of Ben Wallace, Varejao, and Zydrunas is better than having 3 horace grants.. Previous Cavs teams had all-defensive experience in the backcourt with Snow and Hughes, so Lebron always had more good defensive teammates and rim protection than MJ had, while also having better scoring help.. The 06-10' Cavs simply had more help on both sides of the ball than the 1st three-peat Bulls.

Nice try Pippen was 1st an allstar in 90, before Mj ever won shit. So through your bold face lie the reverse seems to be true. Mj couldn't do shit without an allstar caliber teammate. Trash ball gonna trash ball.

** not only that but the following year when Scottie "wasn't an allstar" in 1991? He had better numbers across the board aside from literally a couple of decimal points for steals and blocks. Even further demonstrating how mind numbingly retarded your threads have been all this time. I've never seen a person post so much and be wrong 99% of the time.

[StrongLurk]

Is OP trying to say a player that went 6-0 in the finals is overrated? Interesting.

[plowking]

Remember when coaches and other players were calling Mo Williams a top 5 player and an MVP in the league?

Remember when coaches and other players were calling Pippen a top 5 player and MVP in the league?



Oh. Cool.

[Axe]

No pip?

[HylianNightmare]

Dwight was eating that series. No one on the cavs could guard him

[sdot_thadon]

Dwight was eating that series. No one on the cavs could guard him

To fast for Big Z and way too strong for Andy and anyone else on the team. I feel like he's the entire reason washed up Shaq was a Cav.

[3ba11]

Dwight was eating that series. No one on the cavs could guard him

The Magic achieved a 112.5 ORTG in the series, which is the same as the Cavs' regular season ORTG and less than their ORTG in the first 2 series.... So if the Cavs could've maintained their normal ORTG, they would've won the series..

Unfortunately, bron-ball isn't as effective against top teams - it loses some of its offensive efficiency because it begins to lose the "attrition battle" against top teams that have elite ball movement.. Losing the attrition battle means that bron-ball is no longer applying more pressure than it faces.. The opponent's ball movement is applying more pressure, so Lebron's team gets worn down more defensively than the opponent, and therefore has less offensive capacity as the series progresses - the opponent is more likely to "get hot" because they aren't working as hard defensively by virtue of facing an inferior brand of ball to their own..

Essentially, the opponent rests against bron's ball-domination, while lebron's team gets worn down by zippy ball movement and eventually can't hit the broadside of a barn.. We've seen elite ball movement teams like the Nuggets, Spurs, Warriors, Mavs or Magic get hot on offense after resting against bron-ball, and then using zippy ball movement to wear down Lebron's team and turn them into a bunch of bricklayers.. We've seen it time and time again, and now we see it with Luka-ball too.. He'll break Lebron's record for worst Finals record.. Opponents literally take a nap while Luka dribbles the air out of the ball.. It's amazing that people are surprised when this brand has a lottery record on the championship level and opponents get hot against it, or that the brand mostly loses, regardless of cast.

[3ba11]

Dwight was eating that series. No one on the cavs could guard him

The Magic achieved a 112.5 ORTG in the series, which is the same as the Cavs' regular season ORTG and less than their ORTG in the first 2 series.... So if the Cavs could've maintained their normal ORTG, they would've won the series..

Unfortunately, bron-ball isn't as effective against top teams - it loses some of its offensive efficiency because it begins to lose the "attrition battle" against top teams that have elite ball movement.. Losing the attrition battle means that bron-ball is no longer applying more pressure than it faces.. The opponent's ball movement is applying more pressure, so Lebron's team gets worn down more defensively than the opponent, and therefore has less offensive capacity as the series progresses - the opponent is more likely to "get hot" because they aren't working as hard defensively by virtue of facing an inferior brand of ball to their own..

Essentially, the opponent rests against bron's ball-domination, while lebron's team gets worn down by zippy ball movement and eventually can't hit the broadside of a barn.. We've seen elite ball movement teams like the Nuggets, Spurs, Warriors, Mavs or Magic get hot on offense after resting against bron-ball, and then using zippy ball movement to wear down Lebron's team and turn them into a bunch of bricklayers.. We've seen it time and time again, and now we see it with Luka-ball too.. He'll break Lebron's record for worst Finals record.. Opponents literally take a nap while Luka dribbles the air out of the ball.. It's amazing that people are surprised when this brand has a lottery record on the championship level and opponents get hot against it, or when the brand mostly loses, regardless of cast.