MJ dunks over Hakeem

[3ba11]

The 1995 finals was 4 games. So yes, Robert Horry's data sample is exactly that.

Pippen couldn't match it in 35 Finals games plus 6 more against the 95' Magic in the ECSF, and it wasn't just Horry that Pippen couldn't match:



Kemp drastically outplayed Pippen against the same playoff opponent (98' Pacers):

Kemp vs 98' Pacers........... 26 on 47% (carrying Big Z)
Pippen vs 98' Pacers'......... 16 on 39% (carried by MJ)

Reggie Miller drastically outplayed Pippen 6 of 6 times against the same playoff opponent:

R Miller vs. 90' Pistons..... 20.7 on 57%... 17.9 usage
Pippen. vs. 90' Pistons..... 16.6 on 43%... 20.4 usage

R Miller vs 93' Knicks....... 31.5 on 53%... 27.5 usage
Pippen. vs 93' Knicks....... 22.5 on 51%... 28.4 usage

R Miller vs 94' Knicks....... 24.7 on 44%... 30.1 usage
Pippen. vs 94' Knicks....... 21.7 on 41%... 31.7 usage

R Miller vs 95' Magic........ 25.9 on 52%... 26.2 usage
Pippen. vs 95' Magic........ 19.0 on 42%... 23.1 usage

R Miller vs 00' Lakers....... 24.3 on 41%... 25.0 usage
Pippen. vs 00' Lakers....... 15.1 on 43%... 19.5 usage
Pippen. vs 99' Lakers....... 18.3 on 33%... 23.5 usage

R Miller 98' ECF............... 17.4 on 41%... 21.1 usage
Pippen. 98' ECF............... 16.6 on 39%... 26.0 usage

3rd-year Horry outplayed Pippen against the 95' Magic, and Pippen is 0/6 in matching Horry's gamescore from 95' Finals:

1995 Playoffs vs Magic

Horry............ 18/10/4/3/2 on 57 TS... 19.0 gmsc
Pippen.......... 19/10/6/1/1 on 52 TS... 15.8 gmsc

[3ba11]

You've referred to 2014 Heat a superteam many times. Now they weren't all of a sudden cause I handed your ass to ya?

2014 ECF

Lebron......... 22.8 on 56%
Wade........... 19.8 on 55%


2014 ECF - Clutch-Time Stats

Wade............ 4.5 pts on 80% (2.0 for 2.5 fga)
Lebron.......... 4.5 pts on 50% (1.5 for 3.0 fga)

^^^ Wade was great in the 2014 ECF by virtue of being equal-scoring partner to Lebron and the "closer" (shown above) - he was an all-star from 2011-2016 and nearly carried the Heat to the 16' ECF after Lebron left, despite being old at that point.

So Wade simply had a bad series in the 14' Finals, and that's the critical issue because MJ STILL WON WITH THAT - it's just another distinction between MJ and Lebron - MJ routinely beat top teams with bed-wetting sidekicks, while Lebron never did.. Lebron never beat a top 5 SRS or Finals teams with weak scoring & efficiency from a sidekick, and he never defeated max defensive attention (never carried the scoring load on the championship level).

[ShawkFactory]

If Horry in 95 against the Magic outplayed Jordan in 96 against Seattle...then how the hell did the Bulls beat that juggernaut Sonics team with 4 guys on it better than Pippen? One of lifes great mysteries.

[tpols]

No he wasn’t. Bosh is a far worse ball handler, passer, and didn’t have range off the dribble. He was a better spot up 18 foot shooter(and 3 at the very end) but he wasn’t one to dribble into a long range shot. He was a faceup mismatch on many bigs but he wasn’t some overwhelming scorer for a guy who had people talk about his scoring.

A lot of troll posts give people a weird idea of how Pippen actually scored. You’d think he scored 20 a game on transition dunks. There aren’t enough fast breaks in the world to score as much as he did. And if there were a tremendous number of athletes don’t use them to score that much.

Darius Miles couldn’t just run to 20 a game. Nobody could back then either.

At the end of a game Bosh and Pippen are gonna have the same 18-22 for the most part. Pippen is just gonna run his offense and help others a lot more while they do it.

Chris Bosh was clearly a more talented halfcourt scorer than Pippen. You're capping hard here.

If Pippen was slightly better overall it was because of his defense, not his offense.

[3ba11]

Chris Bosh was clearly a more talented halfcourt scorer than Pippen. You're capping hard here.

If Pippen was slightly better overall it was because of his defense, not his offense.

Why does Pippen get credit for his defense, while guys like Butler, PG13, and others are not considered better than say, Luka based on the same logic.

The reality is that no one gives a crap about defense, in part because intuitively people understand on some level that individual defense is only loosely correlated with a great team defense because there are many ways to skin a cat - weaker shooters and offensive players like Pippen require expensive offensive help, while great offensive players like Luka, Bird or Jordan can be surrounded by cheap defenders and actually yield a better defensive roster and ranking much of the time.

No amount of defense would stop AD from getting traded if he put up Pippen's scoring & efficiency, and otherwise Lebron needed 2 star teammates to win with Pippen-production at sidekick

[ShawkFactory]

Chris Bosh was clearly a more talented halfcourt scorer than Pippen. You're capping hard here.

If Pippen was slightly better overall it was because of his defense, not his offense.

I mean he’s fairly spot on. Bosh was better at certain things as a scorer. Pretty automatic as a pick and pop mid range guy. He could take slower guys off the dribble and had soft touch but wasn’t a playmaker and against better defenders he needed to be set up.

[3ba11]

Bosh's ground-breaking PNR defense allowed the Heat to win without much rim protection, aka small-ball, so why wouldn't this be recognized as All-Defense alongside MJ, due to the unprecedented winning spotlight, and also due to the fact that MJ was a DPOY that already has the media's brain geared to view his teams as "defensive".. It benefitted Pippen that he landed alongside a DPOY that already had the media trained to view and vote a certain way... The reality is that Bosh played All-Defense for the Heat but this didn't cover up his offensive bed-wettings like it did for Pippen.. that's the double-standard.. And the media agenda is different - the media agenda has evolved over the years to crap on Lebron's teammates and say that they aren't enough help, which contrasts with the media urging MJ to "elevate" teammates.. carry on

[tpols]

I mean he’s fairly spot on. Bosh was better at certain things as a scorer. Pretty automatic as a pick and pop mid range guy. He could take slower guys off the dribble and had soft touch but wasn’t a playmaker and against better defenders and he needed to be set up.

Chris Bosh averaged 24 ppg on elite efficiency in 2010 with Andrea Bargnani as his only decent offensive help. Who the **** was "setting him up"...?

[ShawkFactory]

Chris Bosh averaged 24 ppg on elite efficiency in 2010 with Andrea Bargnani as his only decent offensive help. Who the **** was "setting him up"...?

Ummm…the point guards?

While not spectacular overall players by any stretch, Calderón and Jarrett Jack were very sound and heady playmaking points. Hedo knew where to go too.

You thought you had me on that one. Damn.

[3ba11]

We know that Bosh > Pippen because Bosh didn't need the winning spotlight to be seen as great and get All-NBA - guys like Shaq, Lebron, Love, MJ, Bosh or Wade were so good that everyone was forced to make them All-NBA regardless of winning, while other guys like Pau, Pippen and Klay were borderline or below and therefore needed winning spotlight to be seen as good and All-NBA-worthy.

[3ba11]

I mean he’s fairly spot on. Bosh was better at certain things as a scorer. Pretty automatic as a pick and pop mid range guy. He could take slower guys off the dribble and had soft touch but wasn’t a playmaker and against better defenders he needed to be set up.

Similar to Love, Bosh was a traditional in-out big that Lebron couldn't fit with.. Of course both Love and Bosh were sophisticated, all-round players and shooters, so they could adapt and become excellent PNR bigs, but that wasn't their game before joining Lebron.. It ultimately reduced them to lower-producers, which prevented the team from playing to capacity.. Lebron's weak off-ball ability to play with in-out bigs like Bosh, Pau, Love or Shaq is why Kobe is far superior and could win with 2nd option that was worse than Love or Bosh.

[tpols]

Ummm…the point guards?

While not spectacular overall players by any stretch, Calderón and Jarrett Jack were very sound and heady playmaking points. Hedo knew where to go too.

You thought you had me on that one. Damn.

That's a total joke bro. You could say that about literally any point guard in the league. Calderon and Jack averaged 10/5 and we're average at best help. Probably below average actually for the whole NBA.

Bosh just had a super slick midrange scoring game. He had an auto jumper from there and a lot of moves Pippen simply didn't have.

You don't put up 24 ppg on 117 ORTG with crap help without having great creation ability.

[ShawkFactory]

That's a total joke bro. You could say that about literally any point guard in the league. Calderon and Jack averaged 10/5 and we're average at best help. Probably below average actually for the whole NBA.

Bosh just had a super slick midrange scoring game. He had an auto jumper from there and a lot of moves Pippen simply didn't have.

You don't put up 24 ppg on 117 ORTG with crap help without having great creation ability.

Both were smart and sound-playmaking points who knew how to get the ball to a guy in his spots. Neither were scorers and I think both were bad defensively but yea..they were solid, smart pass-first PGs.

Bosh was not an amazing self-creator. They don’t have the numbers that go back that far but I’d imagine he was assisted on a fairly high percentage of his buckets. Unless there was a favorable matchup he wasn’t just like a give him the ball and get out of his way guy at all.

[ILLsmak]

Bosh is a go to scoring big and pip is a playmaking wing. What is going on here lol

Edit: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lrqqFX4ax-0

-Smak

[3ba11]

That's a total joke bro. You could say that about literally any point guard in the league. Calderon and Jack averaged 10/5 and we're average at best help. Probably below average actually for the whole NBA.

Bosh just had a super slick midrange scoring game. He had an auto jumper from there and a lot of moves Pippen simply didn't have.

You don't put up 24 ppg on 117 ORTG with crap help without having great creation ability.

This guy just cited Calderon as his rebuttal.... ... Jarret Jack??.. i can't breathe