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Re: Jokic and Westbrook's chemistry is insane
 Originally Posted by Kblaze8855
and yet you give Steve Nash Amare, Shawn Marion, and Joe Johnson or Dirk and three more All-Stars at the same time and they lose anyway.
The simplest truth is no matter what you’re gonna lose almost all the time and if you get lucky, you’ll squeak by one year while being no better than you were when you were losing with a team full of all stars.
if you give Westbrook an MVP +3 more All-Stars and they lost in the first round to another pretender all the focus will be on a couple weird turnovers and a shot We consider stupid. Same thing happens with one of the smartest players ever who doesn’t do those things and we just move on and nobody talks about it for 20 years.
in truth, it comes down to perception. Like how you and others were talking about Giannis Being easily beatable for years and then he goes and drops 50 to win the title and your response is basically “Still….” Because he wasn’t double teamed every moment With a waiting shot blocker behind them on a team with two defensive players of the year.
Fans not nearly as smart as they think they are just decide what does and doesn’t work and let the inevitability of usual failure prove them right.
I know it. I’ve been that guy before. I just feel like I’m slowly aging out of so many old Argumentative takes.
I’m slowly settling into the idea that nobody knows anything. Myself absolutely included.
When things happen consistently, thats how reputations are built.
Yes, of course someone who is typically a playoff riser can have a terrible series. That doesnt mean he sucks. And a guy who had underwhelmed previously in his playoff career like Giannis can have a brilliant finals. That also was not the norm to that point. So theres no reason to proclaim that as being the norm.
Westbrook earned his reputation through many examples over many years. It's not because he screwed up in a big moment that one time. It's been a constant. And Im not talking simply about wins and losses. That does involve circumstance and some luck. Im talking about the individual player I saw play. His stats put him in the company of players Im certain hes nowhere near in caliber when it really matters.
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Embiid > Jokic
Re: Jokic and Westbrook's chemistry is insane
I agree with Blaze that championships are, obv, extremely difficult to win, and I actually do think Westbrook gets too much of the blame for some of the OKC defeats when imo KD was just as culpable in 2014 & 2016, but Westbrook genuinely does have the absolute worst end of game IQ and decision making I've ever seen.
I know you can pull up highlights to make anybody look bad, but his track record of doing inexplicably dumb things in critical moments is pretty remarkable
0:43 here
09:12 here. Seriously, I can't imagine anybody else taking a shot like that other than him 
He's had playoff games over the last couple of years mindlessly chucking his way into 3/19, 3/19 and 3/18 games, and ended last years playoffs going a combined 8/42 over the final 5 games, scoring just 25 points on 42 shots.
I'm not even trying to argue his teams win without these kinds of plays and performances from him, but you can't just pretend they don't come to the detriment of the team.
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I rule the local playground
Re: Jokic and Westbrook's chemistry is insane
I think what a lot of people don't understand is that sometimes you need a guy to be ultra aggressive even if that means going 8-27.
Westbrook at the start of his career operated as co-captains with KD and at that time he was for sure elite. A lot of boneheaded plays sure, especially down the stretch but that force he played with coupled with insane athletic ability made him a superstar talent in the league. And that elbow jumper was cash back then, it was weird to see it leave him, had to been post KD when it stopped working.
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Titles are overrated
Re: Jokic and Westbrook's chemistry is insane
Plus, all those teams and coaches and players that wanted him... they eventually all let him go with very little resistance as well. Nobody's been saying "we cant let THIS guy get away!" since his first few years with the Thunder. Teams have been just passing him around figuring "we'll cross our fingers and hope there's some benefit left to this guy I guess."
And the same can be said of his polar opposite in Chris Paul who has been on 7 teams and had the same playoff success.
Again….everything talked about happens across the board all through history with only a certain type having it stick. And the reason is simple.
Fans are ignorant of history, confirmation bias mixed with inevitable losing makes people feel validated, and they make everything out to be simple because they themselves are simple with a limited understanding of what they’re seeing.
Id explain better but I’m doing a lot today. I was in Philly for the first post in here, in Manhattan for my reply, and I’m in DC right now going to a movie.
I’ve been intending to answer Illsmak but I never get there.
I’ll read all this in the morning.
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XXL
Re: Jokic and Westbrook's chemistry is insane
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Re: Jokic and Westbrook's chemistry is insane
They’re an actual duo now. Westbrook is officially a top gameplan talking point for teams now on a vet min deal.
And it’s crazy, when Jokic specifically requested Russ, I thought it was a mistake like Harden and LeBron made in the past. But he had a real vision here.
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Re: Jokic and Westbrook's chemistry is insane
 Originally Posted by 999Guy
They’re an actual duo now. Westbrook is officially a top gameplan talking point for teams now on a vet min deal.
And it’s crazy, when Jokic specifically requested Russ, I thought it was a mistake like Harden and LeBron made in the past. But he had a real vision here.
Yeah I was trying to think if they played significant minutes together in an allstar game back in the day or what, altho I dont think they ever overlapped as allstars. I dunno how Jokic knew this would be a good fit when all recent history suggested itd be a terrible fit. Dude's third eye is crazy.
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XXL
Re: Jokic and Westbrook's chemistry is insane
Jokic optimizes Westbrook as a playmaker and cutter. He's so versatile he can fit with pretty much anyone. Russ got in Harden and LeBron's way most of the time.
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Titles are overrated
Re: Jokic and Westbrook's chemistry is insane
 Originally Posted by Neal Romer
Yeah I was trying to think if they played significant minutes together in an allstar game back in the day or what, altho I dont think they ever overlapped as allstars. I dunno how Jokic knew this would be a good fit when all recent history suggested itd be a terrible fit. Dude's third eye is crazy.
Also possible….Jokic like most everyone else realized Russ is maybe the most beloved teammate in the nba. People think I’m exaggerating when I say that, but I don’t think I am. It crosses all barriers and play styles. People in the NBA ****ing love Russell Westbrook fans almost universally don’t understand why.
From Fox News guy Enes Kanter to Playoff P. Young guys like Reeves and retired guys too. Americans…Europeans… New Zealanders. He is unbelievably loved by teammates:
Austin Rivers on Russell Westbrook:
"Do I enjoy playing with Russ? Man, Russ is my favourite teammate I've probably ever had man, he's just an amazing guy. Literally, one of the most wrongly depicted person like, people portray him in a way that's just totally not him. He's literally like the best teammate I've ever had in my life. An amazing guy and an amazing player, and its been amazing playing with him.
Kanter said:
Russell Westbrook was the best player I’ve played with. He’s not just the best player… [he’s] the best teammate I’ve had off the court.
The 27-year-old center, who signed a contract this offseason with the Boston Celtics, expanded on what made Westbrook such a delight away from the court.
“That’s something I wanted to tell the whole world. He’s actually a really chill dude, a really good dude,” Kanter said of Westbrook. “He was the one definitely that helped me the most.”
[QUOTE]
"He’s one of the best
 Originally Posted by Neal Romer
Yeah I was trying to think if they played significant minutes together in an allstar game back in the day or what, altho I dont think they ever overlapped as allstars. I dunno how Jokic knew this would be a good fit when all recent history suggested itd be a terrible fit. Dude's third eye is crazy.
Also possible….Jokic like most everyone else realized Russ is maybe the most beloved teammate in the nba. People think I’m exaggerating when I say that, but I don’t think I am. It crosses all barriers and play styles. People in the NBA ****ing love Russell Westbrook fans almost universally don’t understand why.
From Fox News guy Enes Kanter to Playoff P. Young guys like Reeves and retired guys too. Americans…Europeans… New Zealanders. He is unbelievably loved by teammates:
Austin Rivers on Russell Westbrook:
"Do I enjoy playing with Russ? Man, Russ is my favourite teammate I've probably ever had man, he's just an amazing guy. Literally, one of the most wrongly depicted person like, people portray him in a way that's just totally not him. He's literally like the best teammate I've ever had in my life. An amazing guy and an amazing player, and its been amazing playing with him.
Kanter said:
Russell Westbrook was the best player I’ve played with. He’s not just the best player… [he’s] the best teammate I’ve had off the court.
The 27-year-old center, who signed a contract this offseason with the Boston Celtics, expanded on what made Westbrook such a delight away from the court.
“That’s something I wanted to tell the whole world. He’s actually a really chill dude, a really good dude,” Kanter said of Westbrook. “He was the one definitely that helped me the most.”
"He’s one of the best teammates I’ve ever had," Reaves said. "As a person, you can’t get much better. I got COVID in December of my rookie year in Minnesota, and I was stuck there for like seven days. It was rough, but he reached out like three or four times, asked me if I needed anything, offered to send me stuff, whatever I needed. So as a person, you couldn’t get better. And same as a teammate. He was always empowering everybody to really be better and do better. Like you said, he gets a bad rap, and I don’t really understand why."
Bradley Beal, who played with Westbrook on the Washington Wizards, has raved about Westbrook "as a leader, as a player, as a father, as a man."
“He’s the best teammate, probably, I’ve ever had," Beal said. "And just in terms of leadership, probably one of the best leaders I’ve been around. Because he holds himself accountable. He holds himself to a certain standard.”
Paul George, who plays with Westbrook on the Clippers and who previously teamed up with Russ on the Oklahoma City Thunder, explained what makes Westbrook such a great teammate and leader.
"One thing with Russ is that he had a special relationship with everybody on the team," George said on his podcast. "He would have a conversation with Steve-o (Steven Adams) about New Zealand stuff, rugby, and then he'll have a conversation with me about fishing, then he'll have a conversation with Jerami Grant on anime. He just had a connection with everybody on the team where [once] you get on the floor, it was chemistry. 'This dude really knows me, he really rocking with me. Hell yeah, I wanna play for him, I'm bought in.'
"I thought that was really special. I've never seen that. Usually the star players, they're not assholes, but they have a special relationship with three or four guys, and the rest is just like, 'Oh yeah, that's my teammate.' Russ was like... everybody was his boy. It was dope, it was the craziest thing I've witnessed... But talk about leadership, Russ was a leader, man."
The players all know each other. They talk. They know who is an asshole and who isn’t. The aspect that fans tend to ignore is that these people spend months together and they really really get to know each other. I think it’s really simple. Russell Westbrook is probably an incredible human being and an incredible teammate and missing an extra three of the 208 shots that get taken in a game doesn’t mean as much to other players as fans think it does.
It’s entirely possible Jokic just really likes the guy and wants to play with him. Is it not conceivable that he’s a great guy and an incredible teammate and word has gotten around and stars and role players alike have a tremendous respect that fans will never understand from watching TV?
Wanting to be around somebody for seven or eight months isn’t about efficiency. Maybe you just don’t wanna hate going to work.
this dude is out here as the MVP hanging out with rookies and g leaguers Getting everybody breakfast working on everyone’s game trying to make sure they last in the league and making personal house calls to check on people and meet their kids and hang out. He’s handing thousands of dollars to housekeepers and writing personalized handwritten notes to thank people.
This is an unusually thoughtful and nice person Even for every day life. For people used to dealing with arrogant ass athletes? He must be a tremendous breath of fresh air.
Maybe players just like the guy because he’s a likable guy?
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NBA Legend and Hall of Famer
Re: Jokic and Westbrook's chemistry is insane
 Originally Posted by 999Guy
They’re an actual duo now. Westbrook is officially a top gameplan talking point for teams now on a vet min deal.
And it’s crazy, when Jokic specifically requested Russ, I thought it was a mistake like Harden and LeBron made in the past. But he had a real vision here.
This is actually pretty awesome to see as a player hater myself. We all hope Westbrook can be the best he can be and he's doing it.
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Titles are overrated
Re: Jokic and Westbrook's chemistry is insane
 Originally Posted by tpols
This is actually pretty awesome to see as a player hater myself. We all hope Westbrook can be the best he can be and he's doing it.
just think. You were probably right in the middle of writing a post to hate on him while he was in route to your boy Reeves house with some broccoli cheddar soup and a bottle of patron so he’d feel better while he was sick.
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NBA Legend and Hall of Famer
Re: Jokic and Westbrook's chemistry is insane
I never hated on him as a person. Except some of that fruity outfits he used to wear. But does seem like a good person which matters more. The NBA GOAT is one of the biggest assholes ever so being a nice guy doesn't necessarily translate or have anything to do with what happens on the court.
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I usually hit open layups
Re: Jokic and Westbrook's chemistry is insane
 Originally Posted by Kblaze8855
this dude is out here as the MVP hanging out with rookies and g leaguers Getting everybody breakfast working on everyone’s game trying to make sure they last in the league and making personal house calls to check on people and meet their kids and hang out. He’s handing thousands of dollars to housekeepers and writing personalized handwritten notes to thank people.
This is an unusually thoughtful and nice person Even for every day life. For people used to dealing with arrogant ass athletes? He must be a tremendous breath of fresh air.
Maybe players just like the guy because he’s a likable guy?
When the Nuggets/Spurs played recently they were doing one of those fan games during timeout. In this case it was a shooting competition between 2 little girls. So you look at the one basket and the girl has some lady rebounding for her, probably just a regular employee. Then you look across the court and you see the other girl has freaking RUSSELL WESTBROOK rebounding for her. And when the buzzer sounded Westbrook starts heading to the free throw line to give his girl a high-five, but she had already turned around and was running to halfcourt to get the prize from the announcer haha. The fact that he was the only player out there suggests this fan engagement was purely his decision so it was pretty cool to see.
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Titles are overrated
Re: Jokic and Westbrook's chemistry is insane
 Originally Posted by tpols
I never hated on him as a person. Except some of that fruity outfits he used to wear. But does seem like a good person which matters more. The NBA GOAT is one of the biggest assholes ever so being a nice guy doesn't necessarily translate or have anything to do with what happens on the court.
thing is you can’t really go by a goat standard because you’re talking about five or six people out of thousands. The personality of your teammates is absolutely a chemistry issue. Is easily dismissed due to the inevitable failure that comes with sports. Every player of every variety is likely to fail, almost all the time under any circumstances. So we just attach the traits we don’t like to the failure and ignore the failure Of people without those traits, even though the bottom line is the same.
I think it counts for some of the separation between how players and fans see these things.
I think players just want a positive working environment and they factor that in more than fans ever will because fans don’t give a shit if players like coming to work or not. The fans all of them are rich, so they better get over it. But among a group of people who are all rich, they are really different priorities.
I can see wanting to play with somebody who seems genuinely interested in the well-being of all those around him more than someone you consider an asshole But might help your company in a professional capacity.
A lot of these people don’t care about their teams anymore than we care about our jobs. And that’s ultimately what it is even if we don’t choose to see it that way. It’s a job and people want to be around coworkers they like.
It may not be the biggest priority, but it’s somewhere in a prominent spot on the list.
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Re: Jokic and Westbrook's chemistry is insane
 Originally Posted by Kblaze8855
Also possible….Jokic like most everyone else realized Russ is maybe the most beloved teammate in the nba. People think I’m exaggerating when I say that, but I don’t think I am. It crosses all barriers and play styles. People in the NBA ****ing love Russell Westbrook fans almost universally don’t understand why.
So if his teammates love him and that's what counts, why hasnt he lasted more than a year or two on every team he's been with since the Thunder? Seems everywhere he goes theyre ready to move on from him fairly quickly after he arrives.
Jokic doesnt strike me as someone who makes a player request to management because he needs a friend. Or to have someone in the locker room to give him words of affirmation. He obviously saw some way Westbrook would make sense for the Nuggets on the court, which is impressive prescience considering everywhere else he's been lately has been a disaster.
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