Atheists.

[bk33]

So all the complexity of the universe is not enough?

how is that directly related?

it's like saying "oh, since we can't explain everything in the universe, let's make up a character that has all the power, that way we can just relate anything we're unable to explain to him."

[Take Your Lumps]

Can someone please name 5 absolutely positive things any of the Abrahamic religions have done for society?

I mean tangible things that are undisputably positive and good for the planet as a whole.....you know, like science.

No? How about just 1?

[The Answer]

Common sense.

Again, why don't you enlighten us with this common sense? As obvious as it is to you, it should be very simple to write out a long, well thought out post on the subject.

I know I have to stop.

I don't get that. At all. From what you've stated thus far, it is clear to me that you believe the nonbelievers go to Hell, correct? Have you ever thought about Hell? It is a place of eternal fire. A place of immense suffering, where every second is virtually worse than the last. Forever. Yet, here you are talking about giving up. If I truly believed the stakes were that high I'd be doing everything, and I mean everything, in my power to save people. I wouldn't have a job, a home, or any hobbies. Every second of every day of my life would be devoted to serving god. Literally, I would run the streets, from person to person, begging people to accept the one true god. After all, according to your beliefs, this world is finite, and has no meaning outside of god, right?

If you were on a boat and people all around you were drowning, would you not try to save them? Would you not do everything in your power to bring every living person aboard your vessel? Would not wait until every possible person you could save was saved before heading back to shore? Certainly you wouldn't give up, would you? Like any decent person, I'm sure you wouldn't. Yet, why are you so willing to give up when the stakes are infinitely higher than drowning?

So you're saying the blob of mass that existed before the Big Bang was just sitting there for an infinite amount of time and then exploded (for no reason) into everything that exists today? Do you honestly believe that's what happened?

This does not at all answer my question, so I will restate it. If god can be infinite, why can't the universe? Either way, the same basic concept must be accepted.

[The Answer]

Yes, so 'clearly'.

Yes, I think it is fairly clear. God, being omnipotent, has infinite power. Thus, he has the power to create us in a realm where no "greater purpose" is needed to justify evil and suffering. Furthermore, as an omnibenevolent being, he has infinite love for all his "subjects," correct? With those traits in mind, would it not be illogical for him to create us in a world full of suffering? God, being omnipotent, has the power to elminate evil and, being omnibenevlonent, has the desire to do so. Why, then, does evil exist?

[apriorist]

Yes, I think it is fairly clear. God, being omnipotent, has infinite power. Thus, he has the power to create us in a realm where no "greater purpose" is needed to justify evil and suffering. Furthermore, as an omnibenevolent being, he has infinite love for all his "subjects," correct? With those traits in mind, would it not be illogical for him to create us in a world full of suffering? God, being omnipotent, has the power to elminate evil and, being omnibenevlonent, has the desire to do so. Why, then, does evil exist?

I already answered this.

[i seen hippos]

Can someone please name 5 absolutely positive things any of the Abrahamic religions have done for society?

I mean tangible things that are undisputably positive and good for the planet as a whole.....you know, like science.

No? How about just 1?

Raised a lot of money for charity.

You told me to stop at 1, right?

[The Answer]

your own body is proof of a God.

Let's say, hypothetically speaking of course, this actually made sense. How, then, do you know it is proof of the god of the bible and not one of the countless other deities worshipped by man throughout history? What makes you so sure it's not proof of Ra, the Egyptian god of the sun? After all, he's a pretty cool god too. Every night, the ancient Egyptians believed, Ra descended into the underworld(hence the sun going down). While there, he battled monsters, demons, and other unimaginable terrors. That was his celestial duty. Every morning, however, he arised victoriously and brought light to his people. Or how about Vishnu, the Hindu god responsible for the preservation of the world? Whenever sin becomes to great and evil runs rampant across the world, Vishnu incarnates onto the earth in order to restore dharma. Krishna and Rama are his most famous avatars.

What makes your god so special? Both of my examples sound more worthy of worship than a tyrannical god, who collectively punished all humananity for the sins committed by Adam and Eve and who exterminated nearly all earth's people in a flood.

[The Answer]

I already answered this.

No, you responded with a "How can anyone believe nonsense like the Big Bang theory?" type of answer. Again, if god can be infinite, why can't the universe?

[apriorist]

No, you responded with a "How can anyone believe nonsense like the Big Bang theory?" type of answer. Again, if god can be infinite, why can't the universe?

The question you repeated about evil, I already answered. As to "if God can be infinite, why can't the universe?". We'll the universe can be infinite, I suppose, but it seems like you'd have to contradict the laws of science to accept that. Would that explanation work in any other area of science? If someone asked how something existed (say, a drop of water), would a scientifically-valid answer be "It just is"? No. The universe is bound by the laws of science, God is not.

Incidentally, according to the theory of relativity, there really was no time before the Big Bang since time didn't exist (I think that's true- according to the theory), but that avoids the main point that something existed for no reason.

[The Answer]

Jesus died for our sins is the logic...

God created us to choose if want the evil ways of this world... or
Do we want God and his Holy ways...

The "choice," I presume, is whether or not Christ is the savior, correct? If god is real, the universe must be fair. Like many of my other points, I base this on his omnipotence/omnibenevolence. As an omnipotent entity, god's power is unlimited, and as an omnibenevolent being he has infinite, and equal, love for all humans. Thus, god, as an omnibenevolent being, would desire all humans have the same opportunity to spend eternity with him (because he loves them all the same), and, as an omnipotent being, has the power to make it so.

The problem, however, is that this choice is not fair. See, not all people have the same opportunity to accept Christ. People raised in Christian households, for instance, have a distinct advantage over those raised in non-Christian households. A greater disparity exists in countries where Christianity is virtually nonexistant. Are the people in the deep jungles of the Amazon doomed for all eternity due to them being born a few hundred miles outside "civilized" Catholic Brazil? Because the system described by Christianity is not fair, and logically a god who is omnipotent/omnibenevolent would make a fair system, I cannot accept it.

[Smokee]

i think its silly for an omnipotent being to worry about us and supposedly love us so much like we are the center of the universe to him. The universe is vast, its almost neverending, there is life out there in probably many different places that we'll never reach/confirm, who have never read the 'Bible' and according to the religious will be condemned.

Its almost as tho religious people paint the picture that God is so kind and forgiving and cares so much, and yet he allows so much evil in the world, alot of it based on religion. Was he proud of the Crusades?

Science does not coexist with Religion, dont let any religious zealot tell you that. Its why 'Creationism' is being forced into schools, to counter science courses that contradict religion. Thank God most school systems have enough sense not to let the religious right start faerie tale'ing up education.

I'm not saying there isnt a greater power out there, there very well possibly could be...but no way the Bible speaks for him or represents him. ITs simply a faerie tale written by people, which each religion is more or less based on...the sermons of people trying to preach morality in their own context, not God.

[miller-time]

The problem, however, is that this choice is not fair. See, not all people have the same opportunity to accept Christ. People raised in Christian households, for instance, have a distinct advantage over those raised in non-Christian households. A greater disparity exists in countries where Christianity is virtually nonexistant. Are the people in the deep jungles of the Amazon doomed for all eternity due to them being born a few hundred miles outside "civilized" Catholic Brazil? Because the system described by Christianity is not fair, and logically a god who is omnipotent/omnibenevolent would make a fair system, I cannot accept it.

i asked a christian about this once and he said that, that is why they spread the word of jesus. people who haven't heard of him are judged by the content of their lives. but once you hear of him (properly i assume) then its up to you. which to me makes it sound like "your ****ed if you hear of jesus" lol. why not let them live their lives in peace without the christian headache?

anyway im sick of religious people citing the complexity of the universe or how our anatomy is irreducibly complex as proof of god. they are only complex to our 21st century mind and technical ability. its not up to athiests to prove there isn't a god. its up to religious people to prove their is. if you have a hypothesis you have to back it up with good science as opposed to "the universe is to complex" or "i have faith" arguements.

[i seen hippos]

So you're one of these guys:



"You silly Christians. I'm going to parade my ***** around your city all day and you can't do anything about it cause God doesn't exist."



"You go girl...mmmm."

[Chalkmaze]

K that was ummm GAY.... and had nothing to do with anything in this thread. Guess you've run out of things to contribute to the conversation... which is fine.. because Superboy only had one motive when he started it... and that was for him to be one sided and preach.

[boozehound]

very nice defense of your beliefs hippos.

go back to gambling......


wow, maybe you are one of those guys