Michael Jordan is the GOAT and here is why.

[dejordan]

There were plenty of legit 7' and taller players.

The same can be said of this and Jordan's era:

its weak because it's so easy to score (hence scoring goes up, player averages go up, etc).

what? the league average was much much higher in the 60s. scoring went down in jordan's era. at least get your anti-mj propaganda right when you spout it. in fact i believe when the math is done, russ's averages in a 90s pace are close to 10 pts and 16 rebounds. not to say he couldn't have improved his game dramatically if he played in the 90s, or become a more conventional center who actually helped his team win by dominating both ends like duncan, shaq, and hakeem, but if you just want to take that ever so impressive 15 (on 44% shooting) and 22 and account for the number of shots taken difference i believe that the math worked out to 10 and 16. or roughly ben wallace.

[VCMVP1551]

Jordan also had the most amazing statistical season.

1986-1987- 37.1 ppg. That is the most amazing scoring season ever.
1987-1988- 35.0 ppg, 3.2 spg, 1.6 bpg, 54 FG%. How could an SG put up that FG% and BPG and how could a scorer put up that many steals?!
1988-1989- 32.5 ppg, 8.0 rpg, 8.0 apg, 54 FG%. Not only an amazing scoring season but an incredible FG% and jaw dropping assist and rebound numbers.
1989-1990- 33.6 ppg, 6.9 rpg, 6.3 apg, 53 FG%, 38 3P%. Not only did he keep up the amazing scoring, assist and rebound numbers but he kept his FG% at an amazing number while shooting an excellent 3P%.
1995-1996- 30.4 ppg, 6.6 rpg, 50 FG% and 43 3P%. Somehow with his minutes lower and at over 30 years old MJ wins the scoring title, puts up great rebound numbers for a guard, shoots 50% despite shooting more jumpers and he shoots 43% on 3's which is amazing for a high scoring SG. He becomes the only player in history to average over 30 ppg and shoot over 43% on 3's in the same season

[poeticism707]

what? the league average was much much higher in the 60s. scoring went down in jordan's era. at least get your anti-mj propaganda right when you spout it. in fact i believe when the math is done, russ's averages in a 90s pace are close to 10 pts and 16 rebounds. not to say he couldn't have improved his game dramatically if he played in the 90s, or become a more conventional center who actually helped his team win by dominating both ends like duncan, shaq, and hakeem, but if you just want to take that ever so impressive 15 (on 44% shooting) and 22 and account for the number of shots taken difference i believe that the math worked out to 10 and 16. or roughly ben wallace.

Of course, if Jordan played in Russell's era, he would eventually be out of the league because he couldn't stop the following infractions:

-traveling
-offensive fouls
-cursing the refs (he would not have lasted in that era with this; he only "got better" in his career because he received more and more respect from refs)
-palming the ball (he'd turn the ball over on VIRTUALLY EVERY possession; if he corrected this, he wouldn't be as effective ball handler)
-no shot clock, meaning other teams could get the lead and stall, and jordan's numbers would DECREASE VASTLY-15ppg maybe?
-likely not as much hero worship, so not as many calls
-hand check allowed, meaning other players could defend him better
-no advanced physical therapy for Jordan during his career- meaning his body breaks down sooner, more injuries, less production in his career
-making a meager salary playing, many players of that time worked another during job the offseason; if Jordan had to work like everyone else, his game would NOT BE HALF WHAT IT WAS, EASY, due to not being able to train in the off-season.

These differences would render Jordan a very different player- not the one you remember.

In essence, put Russell in this era, with his former limitations, he's not the GOAT. Give him Jordan's advantages in this era, he's the GOAT.

Put Jordan in Russell's era, with Russell's limitations, he's not the GOAT.

But based on everyone playing in their own eras, Bill Russell is the GOAT.

[kgisbigticket]

There were plenty of legit 7' and taller players.

The same can be said of this and Jordan's era:

its weak because it's so easy to score (hence scoring goes up, player averages go up, etc).

Actually it is much tougher as the pace is much slower which allows defenses to get more on you and the mpg played for player is much lower.

Also if Russell was so good, explain how he shot 44% for his career? That's pathetic for a Center.

[kgisbigticket]

Of course, if Jordan played in Russell's era, he would eventually be out of the league because he couldn't stop the following infractions:

-traveling
-offensive fouls
-cursing the refs (he would not have lasted in that era with this; he only "got better" in his career because he received more and more respect from refs)
-palming the ball (he'd turn the ball over on VIRTUALLY EVERY possession; if he corrected this, he wouldn't be as effective ball handler)
-no shot clock, meaning other teams could get the lead and stall, and jordan's numbers would DECREASE VASTLY-15ppg maybe?
-likely not as much hero worship, so not as many calls
-hand check allowed, meaning other players could defend him better
-no advanced physical therapy for Jordan during his career- meaning his body breaks down sooner, more injuries, less production in his career
-making a meager salary playing, many players of that time worked another during job the offseason; if Jordan had to work like everyone else, his game would NOT BE HALF WHAT IT WAS, EASY, due to not being able to train in the off-season.

These differences would render Jordan a very different player- not the one you remember.

In essence, put Russell in this era, with his former limitations, he's not the GOAT. Give him Jordan's advantages in this era, he's the GOAT.

Put Jordan in Russell's era, with Russell's limitations, he's not the GOAT.

But based on everyone playing in their own eras, Bill Russell is the GOAT.

Bill Russell is a combination of Dikembe Mutombo and Marcus Camby. A guy who is a Center and who never finished top 10 in PER is not the GOAT. Russell is no where near GOAT. David Robinson was even better than Russell.

[kgisbigticket]

Also the guy with the most rings doesn't make the best player. the best player is a guy who has a combination of winning and dominance in all facets of the game. MJ is that player. Magic said that Russell was the greatest winner, while MJ is the Greatest Player.

[glidedrxlr22]

Good thread KG. Nice homework.

[mlh1981]

A rare breed of player. You take someone that has just out-of-this-world talent, and not only that, but a superhuman work ethic. Take those two things, and add in his leadership qualities, intangibles, marketability, and what you have is something that will probably never be duplicated again. There are players in the NBA currently who may be as talented as a prime MJ, but they don't have the work ethic, good health, right team situation, or intangibles needed to TRULY be on his level. Then again, never been a big fan of comparing players from different eras, because the rules of the game/competition differ greatly..........

[YAWN]

Good thread KG. Nice homework.

plagiarizing someone elses thoughts, good job.

this thread is pointless and by having proven morons like kgisbigticket post this, it somehow diminishes mjs accomplishments for at least a couple seconds.

[clipps]

This thread is retarded. What are you gunna post next? How Antarctica's the coldest continent on the planet?

[poeticism707]

This thread is retarded. What are you gunna post next? How Antarctica's the coldest continent on the planet?

I was getting to that.

[dejordan]

poet, i'm not factoring in what russell would be like in this league. i'm not talking about what i think or conjecture that changes in rules or whatever would do to him. for the record i think he would improve dramatically with conditioning and the ability to learn form modern players. what i am doing is a perfectly reasonable factoring of pace between the two eras to make the statitistics more comparable. here's one for you:

russell's best rebounding season he averaged 24.7 boards per game.

his team shot 8770 fgas and made 3619. that's a total of 5151 rebounds available. so assuming the other team shoots a similar percentage (was probably worse thanks to russ's d) we can say he had a number close to that of available rebounds for the season. divide that number by 48 min per game and 80games in the season and that comes to a 1.34 available rebound / min rate.

russell got 1930 rebounds that year in 3482 minutes of play (44.6 min / gm in 78 games). so multiplying the minutes he played by the available rebounding rate means that he had the opportunity to rebound 4666 avaiblable rebounds. divide his actual rebounds by his available rebounds and you get 41.4% of available boards were taken by russ.

now in 1996 the bulls took 6892 fgas and made 3293 of them. that's a total of 3599 rebounds available. divide by 82 game and 48 minutes and you get 0.91 available rebounds / minute.

multiply available rebound / minute rate from 96 by russ's minutes played and that's 3169 rebounds available to russ. he rebounds 41.4% of misses. so he actually pulls down a total of 1312 rebounds. divide that by the 72 games played and he has 16.8 rebounds per game.

by comparison rodman grabbed 48.5% of the available rebounds in his minutes of play. at the 62 league rebound rate he would have had of 1.34 available per minute, and playing the same 2088 minutes he did in 96, his total rebounds would be 1357. divide that by his 64 games played, and he has 21 rebound per game average.

all i did was factor for the number of available rebounds per game in the 60 versus the 90s on the two best teams. everything is still a fact. no one is being smeared as a person or a player, but the numbers are more representative of the eras when making comparisons. this is what analysts have to do compare stats across eras.

[Kblaze8855]

Russell is currently like 82nd in PER. Not stellar by any means.

Numbers at the time are incomplete and many of his best aspects were not fully counted. How high do you think his numbers would be if they counted his full 19/25/8-10 blocks and 6 assists(probably 8-10 by our standards...if a player had to dribble to score back then you dont get the assist) in his prime? Steals too. No steals. I imagine his blocks, steals, and extra assists would more than make up for any turnovers. Just didnt have the stats to record all that a defensive first player did.

[VCMVP1551]

Russell in todays game would probably average in his prime 12-14 ppg, 13-15 rpg, 4-5 apg, 3-4 bpg.

[Smokee]

I dont know why an argument needs to be made that he even is the GOAT. He is. You cant design a more perfect NBA player even if you could get on your computer load up NBA Live and create a player from top to bottom he wouldnt end up more perfect of a model of the perfect NBA player than MJ, when it comes to a guard at least.

Just from every aspect: fluid movement, athleticism, drive, jumper, just in terms of every fascet of a bball player it cant get much better than MJ period.