Any one taking supplements for working out? (protein, creatine, testosterone)

[PejaNowitzki]

I'm afraid I've stayed away from this supplement for two reasons:

1.Contains Creatine Monohydrate- Why did they avoid putting Creatine Ethyl Ester in there product? Monohydrate is known for not having a good retention for all the extra water that will come into your body, and in the process will give you a gut/soft muscle effect. The Ethyl Ester is usually known to mute this effect

There is also no scientific evidence that creatine ethyl ester works. There are hundreds of studies that show that creatine monohydrate works, and the water retention aspect of it is minimized when using the micronized form of creatine mono.


Keep in mind, the reason why I think that people feel they don't get any bloating from CEE is because they are taking a MUCH lower dose of it. CEE is dosed in 1.5 grams, creatine mono is dosed anywhere from 5-10 grams, and dumbass people still feel the need to "load it." If you take 1.5-3 grams of creatine mono, you won't get any bloating either, I promise, and studies show that you need far less than was once thought. 3-5 grams is PLENTY, and there is debate on whether it should even be taken everyday.

I would feel far more comfortable taking creatine monohydrate than CEE, which has a far more rapid conversion to creatinine, and has no real studies backing its use. Its more of a marketing hype thing, and nobody has been able to prove that it is superior to creatine monohydrate as of yet.

2.NO? I didn't see any hints at all that there was any NO at all in this product. This leads me to believe that you have to spend money on another NO supplement anyway.

Do you even know what NO is? Are you under the misconception that there is some sort of magic "NO" ingredient, and not just plain arginine and citrulline, which 99% of the supplement companies use?



For more info on the scam of NO products.......check out the following link.


http://www.t-nation.com/readTopic.do?id=556124

Arginine blood flow stimulators ("nitric-oxide" or "NO2" supplements) have been shown to increase vasodilation, but only in unfed people receiving enormous doses through an IV.

• Oral arginine supplementation doesn't affect blood flow.

• A dose as low as 10 grams has been associated with gastric upset when consumed orally. This dose has no significant effect on glycogen storage, even if it didn't cause diarrhea.

• Time release arginine is supposed to lead to a "perpetual pump" effect. New studies have shown this not to be the case.

• NO2 was shown to have no effect compared to a placebo on body composition or muscle strength.

• It's not possible for us to consume high enough levels of arginine to effectively increase nitric oxide levels.

• Copycat NO2 products are no better than the original supplement. In fact, those that contain glycocyamine should be avoided because of potential health concerns.

• If you think these products work for you, then you'd better look into the placebo effect.

• Arginine might temporarily elevate growth hormone levels, but only if you're able to take unrealistic doses. There's little evidence to support that this short term increase in GH would do anything for your physique anyway.

• In one study, arginine aspartate was shown to increase prolactin by an average of 75%. Prolactin is associated with decreased Testosterone levels.

• Five grams of arginine consumed during resistance exercise was shown to decrease normal exercise-induced GH output.

• The positive benefits of oral arginine supplementation can only be achieved through doses higher than the human body can handle. And most (but not all) of this effect is mediated by insulin. So if you want to have blood flow increases equivalent to a huge IV arginine infusion, just manipulate insulin through other means (which will be discussed in the next article.)

[XxNeXuSxX]

There is also no scientific evidence that creatine ethyl ester works. There are hundreds of studies that show that creatine monohydrate works, and the water retention aspect of it is minimized when using the micronized form of creatine mono.

http://www.creatinesupplementguide.com/
I'm not going to claim that creatine EE is a miracle worker. But apparently studies have shown when an ester is attached, the half-life of the Creatine is more than doubled and has a much faster absorption rate.

Keep in mind, the reason why I think that people feel they don't get any bloating from CEE is because they are taking a MUCH lower dose of it. CEE is dosed in 1.5 grams, creatine mono is dosed anywhere from 5-10 grams, and dumbass people still feel the need to "load it."

Anyone that's stupid enough to do a "loading phase" for weeks to waste a product deserves any of the negative aspects that come with it. With that said, I never heard of the dose of CEE being that much ridiculously lower than Monohydrate, do you have a source?

If you take 1.5-3 grams of creatine mono, you won't get any bloating either, I promise, and studies show that you need far less than was once thought. 3-5 grams is PLENTY, and there is debate on whether it should even be taken everyday.

Interesting. Again, do you have a source?

I would feel far more comfortable taking creatine monohydrate than CEE, which has a far more rapid conversion to creatinine, and has no real studies backing its use. Its more of a marketing hype thing, and nobody has been able to prove that it is superior to creatine monohydrate as of yet.

Creatinine is supposedly bad. People from BB though get really touchy if you try and discuss which one produces more. It's arguable.

Do you even know what NO is? Are you under the misconception that there is some sort of magic "NO" ingredient, and not just plain arginine and citrulline, which 99% of the supplement companies use?

Uh, I guess. L-arginine =/ NO then?

[ForceOfNature]

I've heard about all these supplements and performance enhancers, but what is some type of product excluding performance enhancers and drugs that I can take after workouts to build muscle?

[XxNeXuSxX]

I've heard about all these supplements and performance enhancers, but what is some type of product excluding performance enhancers and drugs that I can take after workouts to build muscle?

Whey Protein and Glutamine.

[PejaNowitzki]

http://www.creatinesupplementguide.com/
I'm not going to claim that creatine EE is a miracle worker. But apparently studies have shown when an ester is attached, the half-life of the Creatine is more than doubled and has a much faster absorption rate.

Once again, there is no proof that creatine ethyl ester is superior to creatine monohydrate. I look at all the latest studies, and there is nothing in the present, nor historically, that demonstrates that CEE is superior. Does this mean CEE is worthless? No, of course not, I just question these companies that advertise it as being superior as they have no leg to stand on, not to mention they often use the same discredited 1956 Romanian study as the basis for their claims as well. Advertising-driven all the way.

Anyone that's stupid enough to do a "loading phase" for weeks to waste a product deserves any of the negative aspects that come with it. With that said, I never heard of the dose of CEE being that much ridiculously lower than Monohydrate, do you have a source?

Interesting. Again, do you have a source?

Look at the amount of CEE that is recommended for use...the amount that is put into various products. The standard amount is 1.5-3 grams, while the standard amount for Creatine Mono is 5-10 grams. People use much smaller doses of CEE and Kre-Alkalyn(buffered creatine mono), but there is no proof that these products are at all superior to creatine mono. People like them because they don't "bloat", but considering that you are using half or less of the standard CM serving, should that even be a shock?

Creatinine is supposedly bad. People from BB though get really touchy if you try and discuss which one produces more. It's arguable.

Not at all. Standard lab tests have shown that CEE breaks down a lot faster, which is supposedly one of the benefits, as it is supposed to absorb more quickly, but it also deteriorates more quickly, which is why in the beginning, labs were having trouble testing for this stuff(Molecular Nutrition and San Rafael Labs got in hot water over this), but it has been clearly demonstrated that CEE results in a quick reduction to creatinine. It hasn't been shown to be dangerous, but I've heard of many folks coming up with lab results that tested renal function and showed dramatically elevated creatinine levels, moreso than you would see with creatine monohydrate.

Once again, that is why I stick with time-backed creatine mono, creatine magnesium chelate, creatine orotate and Kre-Alkalyn(buffered/basic creatine monohydrate).



Uh, I guess. L-arginine =/ NO then?[/QUOTE]

[hateraid]

No offense dude, but what you posted is total and absolute rubbish that is not scientifically supported in anyway/shape or form.

http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showth...ghlight=Nitric




Also, check out the actual Arginine research website for further info


http://arginineresearch.com/

I'm not trying to call you out but it's funny how you've referenced a thread which contridicts what the site is trying to promote.

But for the sake of argument here are some things I will contradict and agree.

The whole arginine comment is nonsensical. There is only ONE active FORM of arginine, and that is L-arginine. That is why every amino with the exception of Glycine, has a big L- in front of it. You can attach the arginine to various salts, such as esters and HCL, but it doesn't change the fact that what you started out with originally, is l-arginine.

Yes I agree, but like many supplements on the market binding with other molecules have shown to be accepted more efficiently by receptor sites. But yes, it is all L-arginine which I think we both understand is the only form the human body resonds to.

Enhanced NO levels have no correlation with muscle gain either. Real world, double-blind studies have proven that increasing NO levels does not lead to improved gains, on top of that, your body has natural checks and balances that prevent NO levels from increasing beyond a physiological limit, so no matter what you read, your body has a certain point where no further nitric oxide can be produced/absorbed.

NO's correlation with muscle building is it being the means of being able to load amino acids/nutrients into the muscle. So it's all variant to the amount of protien/ calries your taking. Also you may not be able to produce more that physiologcal limit, these supplements are more to retain and saturate what you muscles can hold. Now I now that supplemental form of arginine is still in it's birth but supplementing arginine still ahs it's benefits.

Fact, arginine dialates blood vessel allowing for better nutrient transport and oxygenating muscle tissue.

Fact arginine along with orinthine and other amino acids helps better growth hormone production.



I can tell you're either a kenisiology major or along the lines of that field. Your knowledge shows. (Jurand you may be?)
I've always supported the fact the the majority of you nutrients should come from food and that 80% of results comes from proper diet. Supplements are exactly what they state. To supplement proper diet and fill in nutritional gaps. I know many people in the sport supplement field that are kenis majors and be happy to reference you if you'd like to PM me. You've got intersting arguments that I'm sure many people would be intersted in hearing from where i'm from.

[PejaNowitzki]

Whey Protein and Glutamine.

Glutamine is useless unless you take it in high doses. The only doses that have shown ergogenic benefit, are in the 20+ grams a day range. That is the range that Charles Poliquin recommends, 20-50 grams a day daily for athletes dieting. Most products contain 1/10 of this amount. There are some studies that suggest that it has positive effects on blood sugar and such, but as far as muscle building, the ONLY population's that have responded to glutamine in such a fashion, have been severe burn victims and AIDS patients.

If you are going to use it, find the cheapest pure glutamine product you can, and take 20-30 grams of it postworkout(usually 4-6 scoops)

[PejaNowitzki]

NO's correlation with muscle building is it being the means of being able to load amino acids/nutrients into the muscle. So it's all variant to the amount of protien/ calries your taking. Also you may not be able to produce more that physiologcal limit, these supplements are more to retain and saturate what you muscles can hold.

Most studies conclude that supplementing with arginine has no effect on body nitric oxide levels. It is thought that arginine is an important nutrient, but not the limiting factor when it comes to NO production. The same goes for citrulline, which is an outstanding amino, terrific for endurance, but its NO-enhancing properties are iffy at best.

Now I now that supplemental form of arginine is still in it's birth but supplementing arginine still ahs it's benefits.

Birth? The stuff has been used by physique athletes since the late 1960's. Frank Zane was popping 5-10 grams of this stuff daily Vince Gironda recommend it in his supplement regimen, but after all these years, the response has been pretty weak and most of the old time guys have called it "useless." No to mention that science has shown time and time again that it possesses no real ergogenic benefit.


Arginine to me is similar to Gamma-O. Gamma Oryzanol was a huge marketing scam back in the early-late 80s, it completely vanished off the scene for awhile, and is now being pushed on a newer generation that has no clue just how crappy this stuff really is. Its funny to see old products from back in the day, come back with new labels, new marketing campaigns, with companies taking coal and trying to turn it into diamonds.

Fact, arginine dialates blood vessel allowing for better nutrient transport and oxygenating muscle tissue.

This is why arginine is great for helping to reduce blood pressure, however the supplement companies don't account for the bodies own checks and balances that prevent arginine from having any real impact on muscle-building or nutrient distribution.

In fact, if you want an excellent nutrient partitioning product, go get some coleus forksholi in bulk. It has also been shown to support the thyroid, which can lead to increased fat loss. It is the ultimate supplement for maintaining LBM while on a strict diet.

Fact arginine along with orinthine and other amino acids help to produce better growth hormone production.

Semi-false. There are mild increases of growth hormone associated with arginine use, but this has never been shown to have any ergogenic or even fat-loss benefit. Also, regular arginine use has been shown to decrease growth hormone response over time. The mechanism behind this is not yet well understood.


The best way to produce growth hormone is to get to sleep at a decent hour, on an empty stomach, and train on a relatively empty stomach, as growth hormone in the presence of insulin is a no-go.

I can tell you're either a kenisiology major or along the lines of that field. Your knowledge shows. (Jurand you may be?)
I've always supported the fact the the majority of you nutrients should come from food and that 80% of results comes from proper diet. Supplements are exactly what they state. To supplement proper diet and fill in nutritional gaps. I know many people in the sport supplement field that are kenis majors and be happy to reference you if you'd like to PM me. You've got intersting arguments that I'm sure many people would be intersted in hearing from where i'm from.

I run my own small chain of supplement stores, so its my job to know my stuff regarding supplements. I also spent time working pretty extensively for a couple of these companies, big and small, so I know the ins and outs of the industry and what a screwed up place it is.

[ForceOfNature]

Whey Protein and Glutamine.

Okay, so anyone know where can I find such products? What types of foods, drinks, other products?

[PejaNowitzki]

Okay, so anyone know where can I find such products? What types of foods, drinks, other products?

What do you need? I mean, what are you looking for in supplements? Whey protein is a decent one to start with, along plain creatine monohydrate.


If you need whey protein, go check out bodybuilding.com, or dpsnutrition.com, or go walk into a random supplement store and see what is there for sale. My current favorite is GF-Pro by Ergopharm, but(even though it is not strictly a whey protein) I like Syntha-6 from BSN, as well as Ultra Peptide from Xtreme Formulations.


As far as creatine, find the cheapest bulk micronized creatine monohydrate that you can find. Simply take a scoop postworkout, with carbs and your protein.




Other supplements you can try, especially if you want to boost endurance.


Scivation Xtend-BCAA supplement, take this during workouts, watermelon is the best tasting by far.


Millennium Cordygen-Chinese women's Olympic team used this stuff, it gives a very noticeable boost to overall endurance.


Bulk Citrulline Malate-Mix this in with your Xtend, studies have shown that this stuff can boost endurance moderately.


Caffeine-Small doses of caffeine can give a noticeable endurance boost...albeit a temporary one.


Millennium Carnage-Beta-Alanine supplement, this helps to buffer lactic acid, which reduces soreness greatly. If you've never taken it before, it will cause you to tingle all over, but don't trip, this goes away after using it for a couple weeks.




Anyways, I just wanted to interject my 10 cents into this thread. Just remember, the supplement industry is 75% advertising, 20% bull**** and 5% science. There is a reason that the heads/founders of many companies are guys with advertising backgrounds and no backgrounds in science.

It doesn't take a scientific genius to get on the phone, call up old man Lee in China, ask for several kilo's of random bulk powder, send it to a bottling company, get the product bottred....labeled..stamped, and out the door to retailers before any sort of quality control/testing has been done. This isn't every company in the industry, but it is quite a few of them, so be careful and DON'T believe everything you hear.

[hateraid]

Birth? The stuff has been used by physique athletes since the late 1960's. Frank Zane was popping 5-10 grams of this stuff daily Vince Gironda recommend it in his supplement regimen, but after all these years, the response has been pretty weak and most of the old time guys have called it "useless." No to mention that science has shown time and time again that it possesses no real ergogenic benefit.

I meant mostly to the mainstream. Yes arginine has been around for ever but really hit the forefront with the NO2 phenomenon. But like the industry shows, advertising plays a big role.

This is why arginine is great for helping to reduce blood pressure, however the supplement companies don't account for the bodies own checks and balances that prevent arginine from having any real impact on muscle-building or nutrient distribution.

Agree on the blood pressue. I've been slinging it for years for that reason. Not the top supplement of choice, but I've suggested for many for lowering blood pressure.

In fact, if you want an excellent nutrient partitioning product, go get some coleus forksholi in bulk. It has also been shown to support the thyroid, which can lead to increased fat loss. It is the ultimate supplement for maintaining LBM while on a strict diet.

Not sold on coleus. For thyroid support in regards to wieght management, I'd either go apple cider vinegar or supplements based on sea vegetables. Kelp is really underatted for this. In Canada they have a whole line on greens and stuff of that category.

Semi-false. There are mild increases of growth hormone associated with arginine use, but this has never been shown to have any ergogenic or even fat-loss benefit. Also, regular arginine use has been shown to decrease growth hormone response over time. The mechanism behind this is not yet well understood.


The best way to produce growth hormone is to get to sleep at a decent hour, on an empty stomach, and train on a relatively empty stomach, as growth hormone in the presence of insulin is a no-go.

I didn't say it was the best way, I said it helps with better production.

I run my own small chain of supplement stores, so its my job to know my stuff regarding supplements. I also spent time working pretty extensively for a couple of these companies, big and small, so I know the ins and outs of the industry and what a screwed up place it is.

Congrats to you. You're probably not a big fan of me then being an SSM for GNC. But I do support all companies and never detract on their personal business ethics. although we do have the rep for commissions, I do try my best to be ethical.

[hateraid]

Scivation Xtend-BCAA supplement, take this during workouts, watermelon is the best tasting by far.

I just started taking that. I love it. Scivation sent me free bottles. One Watermelon, one grape.

Millennium Cordygen-Chinese women's Olympic team used this stuff, it gives a very noticeable boost to overall endurance.

Cordyceps right? I've heard of people using it for altutiude training. Heard great stuff about it increasing oxygen capacity.

[wTFaMonkey]

Okay, so anyone know where can I find such products? What types of foods, drinks, other products?

just go to your neighborhood GNC



FCUK GNC ROFL

[hateraid]

just go to your neighborhood GMC

Always get your supplements from General Motors

Just playing with ya bud. Thanks for your support.

[PejaNowitzki]

I meant mostly to the mainstream. Yes arginine has been around for ever but really hit the forefront with the NO2 phenomenon. But like the industry shows, advertising plays a big role.





Agree on the blood pressue. I've been slinging it for years for that reason. Not the top supplement of choice, but I've suggested for many for lowering blood pressure.

Hawthorn and celery seed are more effective for this purpose.

Not sold on coleus. For thyroid support in regards to wieght management, I'd either go apple cider vinegar or supplements based on sea vegetables. Kelp is really underatted for this. In Canada they have a whole line on greens and stuff of that category.

The vast majority of kelp is contaminated with heavy metals. There was a story on this awhile ago, and as such, I don't carry kelp any more. Dulse powder might be an acceptable replacement for some, but as far as the thyroid goes, high-potency coleus, along with 7-keto-dhea and bacopa monieri are the gold standard in supplements.

Apple cider vinegar is an anecdotal supplement. It has no scientific-backing, so I can't really put it in any sort of category. Obviously some folks feel it works, but without seeing that reproduced in some sort of studies, I'm disinclined to recommend it.

I didn't say it was the best way, I said it helps with better production.

I've only seen supplements used for this purpose...benefitting those who are hypopituitary. There is evidence that certain supplements will impact growth hormone release(although most of the so-called secretagogues are total and utter crap as they often contain maltodextrin), but there is no evidence that this leads to any sort of benefit. In theory, it should lead to lowered bodyfat levels, immune-boosting and some sort of ergogenic benefit, but this has not been demonstrated in a clinical setting.

However, if one were to be hellbent on trying to increase their growth hormone response, I would recommend melatonin, l-theanine, GABA, DMAE and Phenibut for that purpose. Basically anything that helps to promote deep sleep and relaxation, should have a positive impact on growth hormone release.

Congrats to you. You're probably not a big fan of me then being an SSM for GNC. But I do support all companies and never detract on their personal business ethics. although we do have the rep for commissions, I do try my best to be ethical.

Meh, I'm more concerned about Vitamin Shoppe than GNC. The GNC's around here have really gone downhill and have taken to hiring strictly elderly women in the 60-75 year old age range it seems.